Why exactly is high protein bad?

[Casey]

I have been doing research on feeding the boys (want to be sure I am giving them the best)
and although I understand as omnivores they would require more of a carb source than a protein one in their staple diet.
I was looking for some information on why the high levels of protein are bad for their actual health?
What can it do over time?
Is it mainly in males and b/c it can cause skin and coat problems?
Or are there other more serious concerns?

I am also trying to convince a friend to not feed her rats CAT food of all things
but wanted some valid health reasons to give her.

Casey

 

[ryelle]

I have a rat diet book somewhere, and it says that rats getting sores on their skin due to high protein is a myth. Hmm, my books are still packed in boxes, but i will try and dig it out and copy it down - see what other people have to say about it. Someone mentioned on here their rat dying of protein poisoning. I am a bit skeptical about the information about rats and protein because there is so much contradictory information out there

 

[lilspaz68]

I actually had a rat with sores from a too-high protein diet. She was treated for ectoparasites and nothing worked, then someone mentioned protein...as soon as I removed some of the protein from her diet, the itchy scabs went away. I am careful with protein now as poor Lucky was one miserable girl for the months it took me to work it out. I'll wait for Jorats to come on and let us know exactly what too high protein can do to the rat physically.

 

[theratlady]

the sores due to high protein levels is not a myth and for some reason its mostly males that react to it or maybe they react sooner then males do. maybe it has to do with females having faster metabolisms. i dont know the scientifics of why it does but may have something to do with the amino acids and they are not able to deal with them properly over time, esp since they are not carnivores.

 

[jorats]

Unfortunately there is not much information on high protein in pet rats. But there are studies done that show that rats require low protein for a better health overall.
It's true that high protein can cause all kinds of dermal problems as well.

I list a few studies here: http://www.jorats.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4502

The university of Guelph which specializes in the health of animals have also concluded that a 14% protein is optimum for their rats which is why they feed it in house. A while back, I had sent my Radar there for a postmortem. In their reports it was noted that he had damaged kidneys, crystals to be exact which from their research and multiple postmortems have concluded that it is a natural part of a pet rat's aging. High protein exacerbates the disease, causing pain to our rats.
If we feed our rats a low protein diet it will allow them to live a longer, healthier life and slow the progression of kidney disease. Which to date, has worked wonders in my crew. I feed my rats a 14% protein or lower because I supplement daily with fresh veggies, I have rats live to 2.5 and beyond... my oldests, a few of them lived between 38 to 43 months.

So the main problem is kidney disease and shorten lifespan...
Rats need carbs in their diet that is where they get their energy source, not from protein like dogs and cats do. Which is why dog food is not energy dense enough for rats.
High protein and high fat will make your rats sluggish and obese. And we all know obesity kills.

 

[ryelle]

OMG i just found that book, and spent TEN MINUTES typing up the biggest piece of text ive written in 7 months. then I accidently hit the button on the side of the mouse and it went "back" one page and i lost it all

STUPID COMPUTERS!!!


i'll have to type it up again later :sad3:

 

[jorats]

Can't you go forward?

 

[Moon]

Sometimes typed text doesn't save, depending on what browser you're using... and sometimes it's luck that plays in, heh.

 

[ryelle]

I went forward and the text hadnt saved. It's my boyfriends fault for having a stupid mouse

Anyways, nevermind. Im hungover, and I dont have the energy to do anything but sit in front of my laptop (ill explain in another post). So, i've typed it up again. THIS TIME, cleverly typed it into a word document first! (you'd think I have the intelligence to have done that in the first place, but I was kind of in a rush lol! Little did I know, it would have saved me so much time in the end!!)

The text is based on the theory that rats + high protein = sores and spots.

This is taken from
'The Scuttling Gourment - Second edition 2005' by Alison Campbell.

Does high protein diet cause sores and spots?

High levels of dietary protein (over around 16%) are frequently quoted as being the cause of spots and sores in rats. It is my opinion that this is almost certainly a myth and as yet I have been unable to determine the original source of the idea. I have also been unable to find a single documented piece of research that suggests this is true. On the contrary, most of the 'evidence' (various accounts of first hand experience) does seem to suggest that it is unlikely.

In Pro.Rat.a Number 133 (January/February 2003) Rachel Rodham outlines her experiences with laboratory rats in the years before they were SPF (specific pathogen free). These rats frequently had spots and sores that were always found to be due to mites. Once the colony went SPF the sores never recurred (the rats were mite free). The two colonies were fed exactly the same diet (lab blocks with a relatively high protein level of around 22%).

My own rats have a very stable diet with no large protein surges, but we still see outbreaks of sores and scabs over individual rats' chins and shoulders. I decided about 6 months ago to treat every outbreak as though it was mites. In every case the treatment given (Ivermectin applied topically) has been effective. I am increasingly inclined to agree with Ann Storey when she writes: "I am pretty convinced that most cases of spots are caused by a skin allergy (skin biopses shows this) and that this is generally due to mites."

Ann goes on to mention a number of factos that she feels may make a rat more prone to showing these symptonms. These include:

Genetic predisposition
Social standing (the 'middle' level rats in a colony)
Weak immune system
Weather changes (Spring and Autumn)

I would add that stress seems to be a major factor (most of the things Ann mentions are indeed stressors), as is illness, pregnancy and (possibly related to weaknesses in their immune systems) being a blue based rat (blue, lilac, platinum).

It is quite plausible that fur mites are endemic in the rat population, but in most cases a fat, unstressed rat will cope with these and remain symptom-free. Stressors (possibly under the influence of genetic predisposition) might then lead to symptoms. Certainly in humans the ability of the immune system to react to normal processes like inflammation is reduced under stress, hence the relationship between stress and eczema/psoriasis. It is also plausible that certain rats may respond 'through' their skin to allergies to certain foodstuffs, but this does not mean that a high protein diet leads to spots and sores.

O.k, so I don't have any opinion on this myself, because i've heard that high protein does and doesnt cause the sores and spots, so im torn between the two.

Tear it to bits if you like. I'd quite like to see what you think.

The book itself seems relatively good, but this part has always had question marks around it as far as im concerned.

 

[jorats]

If my rats suddenly had scabs and spots on the chin and shoulders, there's no doubt that it would be due to mites.

Dermal problems due to high protein is not common and probably affects only those with a specific sensitivity to high protein.
I had 3 blue guys full of sores, I did several mite treatments... they continued to be covered in scabs until I reduced their proteins... their skins completely cleared up. At the time, I had 7 rats and only the three blues (brothers) had the dermal problems.

But my main beef with high protein is not the dermal problems, but the damage to the kidneys, and who knows how many other health problems it could cause.

 

[ryelle]

yea, I understand the damage to kidneys etc. but most people immediately associate high protein with the dermal issues that are sometimes found on rats. I just remembered reading that piece of text and wanted an opinion or two on it

 

[Casey]

Thanks guys! This has all been great and helped very much.
Interesting to find out that blue rats do tend to have more of an issue with protein causing skin conditions.

Casey

 

[theratlady]

high protein levels itself are not the culprit itself in kidney failure at least not initally because then all cats, ferrets and other obligate carnivores would die of renal failure. once renal failure starts though protein can make it worse. its the waste products from digesting and breaking down amino acids that do the excess damage.

 

[Lynngenny]

Also good to know is the foods to avoid due to toxicity they may cause, including:

chocolate,raw beans,carbonated drinks,raw sweet potato,blue cheese,raw red cabbage,raw brussel sprouts,raw artichokes,orange juice,green bananas,green potato skin and eyes,rhubarb,dried corn,cucumber,radishes,spinach,collards,
turnip greens,beets,almonds and,Swiss chard

(Found on: http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/pet_rats)

 

[ryelle]

Im going to take another look through this book, because i think that in that text about the protein and skin, they should have noted that it causes more damage to rats that have kidney failure - and i believe that older rats are more prone to this (could be wrong?). Ive been thinking about it, and i think if you just read that then itd be a bit of the book then itd be a bit misleading and could be quite bad for your rat if you thought "ah, high protein, no sores. should be ok then" when your rat may have kidney failure :?

 

[theratlady]

typically renal failure is a common ailment of any aging creature unless complicated by other factors like infections it starts of slowly and gets worse over time. its something like 2/3 of kidney function is already gone before you even begin to see changes in bloodwork and unfortunately unlike the liver kidney cannot "fix" itself either.

 

[jorats]

The thing with protein, even vets aren't aware that pet rats should have low protein. It turns out a few studies show that optimum health is low protein for rats but for years it's always been thought it should be at 20% or more. Even most of the long time die hard rat lovers will tell you it's not necessary to lower the protein.
It's the same thing with keeping your rats slim and on a low caloric diet, it's been proven on rats to lengthen their lifespan. But people would rather have fat squishy rats than to restrict the diet, to lower the protein and fat, stop the sugar...

 

[ryelle]

But people would rather have fat squishy rats than to restrict the diet, to lower the protein and fat, stop the sugar...

I wish my Sid wasnt so "squishy" he's just lazy though. hes been on many a diet and hes managed to lose 100g over-all with a exercise regime too. Id rather have a crazy little healthy guy like Patrick but Sid wont help himself, so there isnt much i can do. I dont understand why people would want a "squishy" rat

 

[jorats]

I've got two boys like this... they gain weight by looking at food. The best I can do for them is offer them plenty of out time and no sugar or high protein/fat foods.