Rat's reaction to ant poison?

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lizmo1221

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
566
Location
Guelph, ON
So my rats are coming home on friday (yay! :dance: ) and I am all geared up for them. I also have a small ant problem in my apartment right now. It happens every summer. I called my landlord and he said he would be by to put down some powder to kill them once they come into contact with it (didn't get the exact name, but it begins with "Dia") He says he will cover the perimeters of some rooms, since we don't know how they are getting in. I said I wasn't comfortable with that since I will be getting rats that will be out at times. He assured me that it was "pet safe" and that its actually commonly used in barnyards (chicken coops, etc) and only affects insects. I'm not going to take his word for it and was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of this situation?

I have an enclosed area for playtime that should be hard to escape from, but from what I've heard about female rats, they could be crafty escape artists. I really don't want anything bad happening that can be avoided.

So does anyone know anything about this, or know some alternatives that will kill/control ants but be safe for rats?
 
I would make sure the rats never come in contact with it. What about the little containers that kill ants? It's contained and not loose powder... even you shouldn't come in contact with that powder.
 
Apparantly its called Diatomaceous Earth, and its a loose power thats sprayed in areas where ants enter or travel. Apparantly (according to the landlord) it kills because it has millions of tiny razor-like particles that cuts through exoskeletons and dehydrates insects until they die. In non-insects, its "as harmless as talcom powder".

He was just here and put it out, along with traditional rat traps. I let him, to avoid the argument, but if i find anything wrong with it on the net or through you guys, its getting vaccumed up straight away (the traditional traps have been chucked already lol).

Let me know what you guys think
 
Oh ya, I didn't even think about the inhalation issue! Thanks so much guys!

What do you think about the little pots with poison in it that ants crawl into and bring back to the nest? He left some of those already. I'm not sure of this one either since it is enclosed (only a little hole that ants crawl into) but contains actual poison. I'm nervous about leaving these at ground level. Opinions?
 
They would be safer than the powder for sure. If you want to be extra careful, you can collect them all and put the away safely out of reach whenever your rats are out.
 
Rats can get pretty much anywhere if they're really determined, so it's not only the ones at floor level they would be able to get to. Collect as many as you can and be very careful of preventing them from accessing the places where they are.
 
I have never heard of this stuff before, but I did just do some research on it, and other than Wikipedia, I have found a few websites, several related to animal care and this mechanical insecticide, which promote it as healthy and safe for all but insects, except for breathing or the intake of severely large amounts.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-diatomaceous-earth.htm
"The abrasive quality of diatomaceous earth also makes it a safe yet effective insecticide. The diatomaceous earth scrapes the protective outer shell off of insects. Without this protective layer, the insects quickly dry up and die. Diatomaceous earth can be used to remove external parasites from people and animals, and can be spread on crops to kill insects without dangerous chemicals. Some farmers even add a very small amount of diatomaceous earth to their livestock's feed to control internal parasites."

http://www.holisticlivestock.com/de_faq.htm **Note, this is a holistic web page**
"Food grade diatomaceous earth is EPA approved to be mixed with grains to control mealworms and other pests and has been exempted from tolerance requirements as an inert, inactive ingredient in chemical pesticides. Diatomaceous earth is EPA approved against indoor and outdoor crawling insects. Diatomaceous earth is USDA approved as an anti-caking agent for animal feed. Diatomaceous earth is FDA approved for internal and external use and has a rating of Food Chemical Codex Grade."
"DE manufacturers who work in diatomaceous earth mines 5 days/week advise inhaling it is not a problem (though of course, don't be snuffing it). We have not had problems when inhaling DE in small amounts. IF you have asthma or some other lung ailment, either wear a mask or be very careful when using food grade diatomaceous earth."

And the MSDS for it **Note: From distributor's web page**:

http://www.diatomitecanada.com/docs/fsf_msds_nov09.pdf
"IV. Health Hazard Data
Flash Point : Non e Flammable Limits : Non e
Extinguishing Media: Non e
Special Fire Fighting Procedures : Non e
Unusual Fire and Explosion Hazards: Non e
Threshold Limit Value: 10MG/M 3 Total Dust: Nuisance Dus t
Possible Effects of a Single overexpose
Acute Accidental Exposure would be non-specific.
Inhalation Symptoms might include coughing, wheezing, difficult
Breathing and Upper Respiratory Tract Irritation.

Skin Contac t No Known Concer n
Eye Contac t May Cause temporary discomfort and irritatio n
Ingestio n No Known Hazar d
Health 0
Flammability 0
Reactivity 0
Personal Protection E
(Fossil Shell Four Cont.) Page 2
Possible Effects of Repeated Overexposure
Chronic Overexposure May Cause Pneumoconiosis (dusty lungs)
-No Known Hazard-
Emergency and First Aid Procedures
Remove to fresh air. If breathing is difficult,
INHALATIO N oxygen and call a physicia n
Of no general concern. Simply was with soap and
SKIN CONTAC T water .
For acute exposure, flush with water. IF irritation
EYE CONTAC T or discomfort persists, call a physician .
Ingesto n No Know Hazard .
Notes to Physician
There are no specific antidotes to acute overexposure. Treatment should
be directed at control of the symptoms.
V. Reactivity Data
Stability : Iner t Incompatibility: Non e
Hazardous Decomposition Product s Non e
Hazardous polymerization : Non e
Conditions to avoid : Non e
VI. Spill or Leak Procedures
Steps to be taken if material
is released or spille d Vacuum Clean or Wet Sweep Spillag e
Waste should be disposed of in
Waste Disposal Metho d closed containers to prevent dust .
VII. Special Protection Information
Approved dust respirators for exposure
Respiratory Protectio n to potentially high dust environments .

Ventilatio n Local Exhaust Ventilation Recommended .
Protective glove s Not Require d Eye Protectio n Safety Glasse s
Other Protective Equipmen t Not Require d
VIII. Special Precautions
Precautions to be taken in handling and storage
As with all powders, limit the creation and inhalation of dust.
Wet floor may become extremely slippery when diatomite is present."

After reading a bit of it on the MSDS sheet, I would say to just keep your rats away from where it is, especially since they walk on four paws and then clean their faces with the same paws and I'd be worried about the littlest pieces of anything in their eyes. Unless they're over rolling in it, though, I would say that inhalation with proper use of the substance is probably at a minimal, unless you're somehow kicking it up with a breeze or some other action.
However, as the FOOD labeled product is also labeled as an insecticide for fleas and intestinal parasites, I do not think that licking up small amounts of this would kill them.
Feel free to make your own decision, as my research is mostly based on several websites and an MSDS sheet which is provided by the company's research team, and while I'm sure they didn't lie, no one knew that cigarettes caused cancer for a long time, either.
Also, Asbestos causes many symptoms and what it really is is little tiny fibres which activate the body's immune system which can't break it down, and further cause scar tissue over around the little bits. My point with this is that if the rat's white blood cells can't break these down, it may cause something like asbestosis or other asbestos related diseases and cause breathing difficulties in their lives if they are exposed for too long to the dust.
I'm not sure, though as I haven't researched that far into it.

http://www.diatomitecanada.com/fsf_people.php
"It is of the highest quality available, being greater than 99.5% amorphous silica and less than 1/2% crystalline silica. "

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/silicacrystalline/index.html ---> http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2006-110/
"Silicosis is a lung disease caused by breathing dust that has silica in it. The term “respirable silica” is used for silica particles that are small enough to be inhaled and deposited in the deepest parts of the lung. If workers inhale too much respirable silica dust, it causes scar tissue to develop in the lungs, resulting in silicosis. Lung damage may be permanent and disabling and may lead to death. There is no cure for silicosis, but it can be prevented."

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/fact ... k/asbestos
"Chemically, asbestos minerals are silicate compounds, meaning they contain atoms of silicon and oxygen in their molecular structure.

Asbestos minerals are divided into two major groups: Serpentine asbestos and amphibole asbestos. Serpentine asbestos includes the mineral chrysotile, which has long, curly fibers that can be woven. Chrysotile asbestos is the form that has been used most widely in commercial applications. Amphibole asbestos includes the minerals actinolite, tremolite, anthophyllite, crocidolite, and amosite. Amphibole asbestos has straight, needle-like fibers that are more brittle than those of serpentine asbestos and are more limited in their ability to be fabricated ."

After reading, I'd still say, semi-safe for both you and your rats, unless breathed or ingested in large quantities, or if put in face around eyes.
It seems better than a poisonous insecticide, even contained ones, because ants don't die from those poisonous houses, they track their poisoned goodies back to the queen who eats it and they spread the poisoned food around there, when finally the colony dies out. If an ant can track that stuff all over, I'd say it may not be safe either. Plus, I have seen my rats chew through and lick things that they should not be, especially when more than one is out; it would be hard I think to keep any more an eye on them than with the diatomites. If you do use them, I do suggest being very careful and keeping the baits very out of reach of the rats, because I agree, determined rats generally get what they want, even if it's no good.
 
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