Intro: three steps forward, two steps back

Shop with us on Ebay
Fins us on Amazon
Advertise with us
The Rat Shack Forum

Help Support The Rat Shack Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Godmother

Godmother

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2007
Messages
12,058
Location
New Brunswick (central)
The intro last night with Caramel (the terrified lone ratty girl) and the four friendly sisters went so well that I thought maybe I could add Julia (lone girl) to the mix. So tonight I put all six in the tub together.

Well, it started out with lots of squeaking and fear poop (Caramel) and Caramel frozen in a corner, but then it got a lot better. Raylene and Julia seemed to be the alpha-wannabes, which I expected. After about half an hour Caramel was even eating some of the food. Then Julia started getting irritable and trying to dominate everybody. Soon little Rosine was puffed up. Julia pinned everyone, and she made them stay submissive for ages (we're talking more than two minutes).

there is something about Julia that strikes terror into the heart of the pinnee. Poor Cookie was emitting fear poops when Julia pinned her. Maybe it's because the four sisters have never known fear?

At one point (this is one of the steps forward) Caramel and the sisters were huddled together while Julia groomed herself on the opposite corner of the tub. I got them to start moving again before I ended the intro.

So this went worse than I expected because of Julia's effect on everyone else. I have this feeling that I should concentrate on finishing the intro between Caramel and the four friendly sisters. They can be a colony and I will go back a step to introduced Julia to them gradually.

My only alternative is to continue having a bathtub full of fear poop! :sick2: [I had to get out the Comet after they were done]

Any suggestions? Shoudl I try ending the intro when things are going well, even if nowwhere near an hour has gone by?
 
Definitely end it when things are going well.
Then you can very gradually increase the time they are together.
Working out the social hierarchy will need to happen but I'd try to get them to do that much further along in the intro process.

I would likely try it again with all 6 but end it when everything as going well.
If that didn't work, then I would intro the 5 and intro Julia at a later date.
 
I haven't done a lot of rattie intro's but I think I would keep adding them all....so many newcomers to focus on just one....then they learn to work it all out once instead of having to go through it all over again........
 
Thanks, that's what I'll do. Tonight we'll put all six in the tub again, but I will be alert and end it when things are going OK.

I recall SQ's sage advice to make sure that the intros don't go on too long once the food is gone!!
 
When I do intros, I always do an hour no matter if it ends bad. It takes that long for the rats to become tired and show their true colors when frustration sets in.
After a few days of giving food, I stop the food, to force them to concentrate on each other.
Julia is a bully and she emits that to the others. (I have a Julia who is a bully as well.)
Julia needs someone to guide her and be her alpha. Each time she goes to pin, put yourself there and tell her no and move her. Every single time move Julia and show her enough is enough. If Julia persists, remove her for a couple of minutes and keep doing that.
 
OK, I can put some limits on Julia. I had thought that I wasn't supposed to interfere with pinning, but I don't think it makes sense for her to go on for so long.

It would give me a great sense of relief to intervene and make Julia be reasonable. She was not bad at all for the first while, but then she used overkill. The other rats are sweet and not at all aggressive, so there was no need for her to use any force.

The other thing I was wondering about was my interventions to interrupt Caramel's freezing. It went on for so long that I started petting her and then gently moving her to get her unstuck. It seemed to help.
 
I'd bond Julia with Caramel first. They both sound a little insecure and I'd count on that pack mentality to help. Then I'd intro the 2 to the group and expect the group intro's to go easier.
 
Well, I finished another intro. This one went better than last night's. Julia tried to get out of hand, but I intervened and she soon got the message. Caramel froze, but not as often or for as long. Near the end, Julia was in one corner, very still. The three most submissive ones (Caramel, Cookie & Rosine) were huddled tightly together in another corner. Raylene kept walking around and checking out Julia, and Heather kept jumping out.

Caramel ate some food. All of the rats approached Julia at some point in the intro.

So I had to clean the tub again, but there were fewer fear poops than last night.
 
It was a disaster tonight, and I am utterly discouraged. I am really sorry that I ever bothered to try integrating Julia after discovering she was a bully.

Caramel went to the corner and emitted fear poops the minute I put her in there, when she was still alone, so I know that she has been sensitized by the last two nights.

Julia was on a rampage tonight, and I had to keep intervening. She didn't hurt anybody, but she was puffy and kept approaching the others aggressively. She managed to flip Cookie and Heather before I could stop her. The others did not seem scared of her except when she approached them aggressively, except for poor frozen-in-fear Caramel. Finally I took Julia out, but by then it was too late for Caramel.

Caramel kept sitting in a corner, frozen and emitting more fear poops. She never felt at ease tonight, even once Julia was out of there. The other girls were not aggressive toward her at all, but she would hunker down submissively if they even came over to sniff her. I tried taking all of them out except sweet little Rosine, but even then Caramel was not very at ease. At least she moved around and started grooming when Rosine was at a safe distance.

So I don't know what to do now. I am exhausted and fed up maintaining extra cages and having five out-time groups and staying up so late every night to work on intros (have to be at work in the morning). I am about to go on holiday, and it will take extra trips to the sitters (each trip over 20 km each way) because of having to take extra cages. And then I am faced with the same mess when I get back.

As for the girls' well-being, this is not good. Probably they all trust me less, for putting them into such a stressful situation. I don't know whether I will ever be able to introduce Caramel to other rats. I feel terrible that I have added to her traumatization. As for Julia, she will be like Edith. I don't have the kind of time or skill that it would take to introduce her to others.

I will not take in any more lone rats until I acquire the skill and the time to integrate them.

Meanwhile, do any of you have suggestions? Should I forget integrating my lone girls? Should I wait until October to try again with Caramel? (I won't have a chance to do it before) Should I try Caramel with a submissive elderly rat like Janie? Should I try to find a different place for intros (because of Caramel's fear of the bathtub)?
 
Maybe leave Carmel out of the introduction with Julia......for now. Intro Carmel with the 4 youngest girls..........Intro Julia with the four youngest girls and then when that is done try Julia and Carmel again.........in a different spot......maybe on a bed? Or a table?
I think my goal would be to get Carmel introed with the 4 sisters......If you have someone else you could intro Julia to maybe that would work better........like maybe the boys?
Sorry this is going so badly, sometimes it does take awhile.....
How old is Julia, Carmel and the 4 sisters....and who lives right now with who?
 
:hugs: Godmother, you sound like my sister.... she's totally discouraged and frustrated with her intros too.
She's throwing in the towel... but may try again at a later date.
Sometimes they need a month off.
What I would concentrate on is Caramel and the 4 sisters. Caramel needs the other rats to help her overcome her fear.
Anyone else you could try Julia with? Boys sound like a good idea for her. My Julia was a real bad girl until one of the boys matured and took over as alpha and that's when she completely settled down. It's like she needed someone to take over.
 
Thanks, sorry for whining. I was "crevée" and very discouraged when I wrote that.

I will have to find a way to get Caramel in with other rats. it is painful to see her alone after her good progress with physical strength & agility and with her comfort level with people.

I may use an empty playpen instead of the bathtub, because the bathtub has become a fearful place for Caramel.

Caramel and Julia are about 9 months old, and the four friendly sisters are almost five months old. currently I have five cages:
Julia, alone
Caramel, alone
Cookie, Raylene, Heather & Rosine
Janie & Charlene (2 1/2 years)
Bill (21 months), Jesse & Ronnie (almost 2 years), Clara & Hilda (just over 2)

The boys are not aggressive, but Bill is probably now assertive enough to take on Julia. He is my biggest rat (about 660g). Hilda is feisty also, although she is tiny, and she can be a mean groomer (picked on Clara when they were living as a pair). Jesse is very submissive, Ronnie is moderately submissive, and Clara is a squealer who alternates between submissiveness and picking on the more submissive ones.

So maybe I will do an intro with Caramel and the friendly young sisters in the playpen tonight and leave Julia for an intro to Bill's gang in the early fall.

Thanks again for emotional support and good suggestions. Tell Nicklerat to hang in there!
 
Last night wasn't too bad. I have decided to wait til fall to intro Julia, so I put the four sisters and Caramel into the playpen (neutral but not terrifying).

I actually let it go on for two hours, napping in a chair sometimes because it was so late.

Caramel at first was so afraid of the others approaching her that she would shriek when they came near her... a real loud shriek like you would expect if someone had bitten her, but nobody was in the least aggressive.

After a few of her shrieks, the others just let her be. She was cowering under the wheel, so they would occasionally sniff her on their way into the wheel, but they were all very laid back.

Caramel never did come out to eat the food, but she did move a bit and she finally groomed herself and ate a chick pea.

My rat-sitter said that she could give them play-times together. So this is going to work eventually!
 
I think I would have let them spend the night toghether in the playpen......Doesn't sound like the sisters would hurt her and she just needs to stop being afraid of them.....
 

Latest posts

Back
Top