Devil's advocate

[Fidget]

Mymom said to me that these kids seem pretty darn delicate and pretty fine-tuned in their needs and in comparison to their wild brethren that live anywhere and eat anything. And come to think of it I've never seen a tumor on a wild kid and I watch any show that has ratties be it subway, exerminatior or just New York in general..
Perhaps they all die at a year old so they don't have a chance to get those problems? But honestly I have a suspicion that domestic rats, especially those that are bred from lines that have been kept healthy thru antibiotics are much less hardy than their wild counterparts.

My Nellie that would have lived longest was a black berk that was bred & sold as snake food,she was alone when she came and would have nothing to do with me til I got her a friend (Ladybug) and that friend trusted me. Nellie was mom to every kid that came from then on. 28 1/2 months after I got her she had a small bump on her right hip, 5 days later it was big and she started jumping off their homespace (never did that before nor did any of the others) and coming to me in bed or into the living room lookng for me(my little Nervous Nellie who never was affectionate with me)... 7 days later I woke to find her in bed with me, she had a gaping hole in her side, it was bleeding a little, I was certain she had a cancer gradually eating her away. She was breathing heavily (but she's had mild periodic breathing problems for a year).I kept her on my lap or in my arms all day. Next day I felt selfish for keeping her with me as I believed she had a tumor eating into her.. and maybe she was hurting. I took her to the SPCA that said they'd put her down gently, for her sake so she didn't suffer that cancerous hole just eating away at her. OMG, my greatest regret when I learned more than I knew then. Maybe all she needed was antibiotics? She came to me in the end and I killed her :cry3:

My shortest lived (that wasn't sick) was a blue dumbo baby (Will'O'the'whisper) in a feed cage years ago that the pet store said came from a tumor prone line, they (wouldn't sell her to me til I signed that I didn't buy her as a pet. Sure enough 7 months after I got her she got a swelling under her chin and I had her put down thinking I'd given her a wonderful life and she never faced a snake. 7 years ago. Could have been an abscess easily cured by antibiotics? I dunno, in those days I didn't have money and just wanted to give a happier life to disposable pets than someone else would give them.
I sure wish I hadn't thought of them as wired to self-destruct at that point...

However they both lived very happy lives with me, I had the smallest of cages thinking they didn't need more as they only slept there and I loved having them out on the table or the couch with me more than they loved it even. I gave them what I thought was healthy food from my plate and lots of treats cause most entities find pleasure in food.

This is not about me learning the error of my ways... it's about the kids I had then that really did had good happy lives, even if their cage was small, even if their diet didn't make them live 3 years plus, even if they lived less time but enjoyed every day of it, and then just were PTS. They don't know about time, they only know about how they feel. They don't care if they live 2 or 3 years.
As long as they have safety, food & water each day they're ok, If they have love and snugglebuds and things to interest their curious little minds they enjoy each day. If they have treats they have special moments.

In all honesty I wonder if the things I do now are right by my kids.. Maybe I've crossed the line between what they need and what I can give..
Yeah, great lifesaving efforts for ongoing frightening respiratory problems (I've been there personally and know the terror of feeling like you can't breathe but not dying) or pain, or the hell of wanting to do things while a PT made them try to eat a cheerio but be unable to chew it. Or want to run and and only be able to go in circles...
Or even lose your back end ability and watch the others run, play & live while you just wish you were dry.

I've come around to think that I should have taken both Nelie & Whisper to a vet..
But my Summer, increasingly sick from Oct 3 til she died Dec 25. Forcing meds she hated into her twice a day on a schedule.. she'd go from sleeping peacefully to suffering stess that made her breathing worse, and me crying & feeling so bad for doing it to her - because she was still eating and enjoying life when I didn't do that to her.
Other kids, I keep them breathing comforably so they can not suffer while their abilty to run & play is gone and even their ability to get out of the pee-spot lessens.

I went from 'disposable pets' to 'spend anything to buy another day'. I value life for those who want it. But I'm just not so sure anymore that I have the right to intervene medically if that life is going to be more dealing with difficulties than gaining good time.
If a kid is going thru terrorizing agony in her inability to breathe a couple times a day and if theirs no reasonable hope that it can be cured (not just managed)why would she want to live another few months in that state?
If a kid is watching his cagemates tripping around and doesn't understand why his desire to join then doesn't make his legs move... I do my best, he's never laying long in a peespot and I make sure that he's getting around to his old stomping grounds even if in a handchair. But why do we expect that so little is good enough for them..

I don't want that for myself. I don't want to struggle to breathe, or be unable to get around on my own, or have internal tumors pushing things around and causing pain. Yeah a few months is a lot in a rattie life, but a lot of what?

Don't get me wrong, I truly am happy for kids that are going to be enjoying whatever time is bought for them, and more even for their humans that bought that time, I just wonder how much of that time is bought for the kids and how much for their humans?

Honestly, I think I'm very confused sometimes about what is doing right by them and what is doing right by us.

 

[Jherek]

This is a great post. It's a hard subject to address, most people would insist it's for their babes, even if it's really not.

It's the same thing with humans. When my grandma was in the hospital, we wanted them to do everything they possibly could to save her. She asked that they do absolutely nothing invasive if she were ever in that position (she was in a coma, so we had to decide). It was the hardest thing ever, having to accept that it wasn't our right to put her through all that- breaking ribs trying to resuscitate her, shoving tubes down her throat, causing her even more pain than she'd already been through... only so she would live the rest of her life having to be cared for, unable to do anything herself. This happened when I was a teen, and I was so angry at my family for it for a long time, but I realize now how selfish it would have been to do otherwise. I feel the same way in regards to my pets now, and have to remove my own feelings from the decision.

 

[Fidget]

I'm so sorry that you were exposed to that 'keep her alive' or 'let her go' when you didn't have any input in it...
Harder to have the input and have the make the choices - but you know what I mean.
I sincerely am behind anyone that wants to go to great surgical lengths for their kids -
I know these kids are having all their needs taken care of.
Nobody spends that cash without spending twice that in love and efforts to make life as good as it can be for that kid.

 

[Jherek]

That's true. :] It's a very tough decision with animals. We knew what my grandma wanted. With animals, it's such a hard thing to choose... but I think it's important to learn to remove yourself from the situation and try your best to be unbiased. Easier said than done. I know people who do go to those sorts of lengths are doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[Fidget]

Absolutely, I'm not questioning going to great lengths, I'm just just questioning whether it's the only loving thing to do.
Always it's going to be about the individual kid's situation for any of us, but I know I'm leaning a different way than I have for a while.

I guess this came from people getting so critical of that tall skinny cage. That bugged me. I had 4 or 5 in a small cage long ago, but I'd hate to have died and have my babies go into a rescue and have people showing their cage and talkikng about how they were neglected or lived their lives in there...

Ten years ago this is the cage I had for my 1st ratties (boy & girl) cause they were found in a parking lot and I had no money and a friend went to the 2nd hand store and found this cage so I could take them in while we spent days going thru the neighbourhood trying to find where they belonged.

I spent hours slowly scoring a piece of arborite on one side then the other with a razor blade (it shatters if you don't cut it right) the day they were found so I could make a divider with what I had... and when we couldn't find their home I had the boy fixed and that was over half what I had for groceries that month. Not knowing ratties at all I was too late, even under my watch she got pregnant.

But I tried you know. I'd never been around rats. I didn't ask for this either. I just was caring for them til we found where they belonged... and I fell in love....

I couldn't afford a bigger cage. But my kids slept in the cage,they weren't confined to the cage. I thought it was adequate from the little rat books I hunted up in the 2nd hand bookstore, I bent over backwards to make those kids lives good. And to think people would be shaking their heads over their horrible circumstances really riles me.
Some people have to lock their kids in a big cage to go to work or whatever, but mine were out with me or on the table that their small but open cage sat on.
It's so easy to judge...

 

[lilspaz68]

To get back to the wild brethren. Rats in the wild usually only live a year. Which is well before most tumours and issues will show up. If you want to see tumours, and deformities, you need to look at the pics of the sacred rats in India in the temples. Those rats are fed and cared for so they live much longer and horrible things show up from all the inbreeding, etc.

Knowing when to let ratties go is very personal and very difficult. They have such a strong instinct to live, and really do live life moment by moment. You and most aware rat owners know that the light goes from their eyes when they are saying "I have had enough". That is my cue most of the time. you really cannot use "manage" in this case. You "manage" CHF with heart meds and the rats usually have a good albeit often shorter life...take away the heart meds and they will become very ill and likely die.

Don't worry about your former ignorance...you LEARNED! A lot of people never ever do! My sister is convinced she knows how to take care of a rat, since she used to have them...remember Bradley that I took in from her? :gaah:
A long time ago when I brought home a single PEW girl from a petstore and then she had babies...I ended up giving all the females to my sister and her kids, and I kept the 4 boys on pine, (I knew cedar was bad :roll in a 15 gallon tank, with a box, feeding hamster mix, and never understanding why they fought all the time. :doh:
We only had horrible books to learn from at that time. It was only the internet that truly woke me up...I googled rat, and ended up sitting here for like 8 hours reading. Quickly learning also that a lot of sites were bogus. :cheeky:

 

[jorats]

The rats that have lived a long life with me like Loki, (rip 45m) Bijou, (rip 41m) Mielle, (rip 38m) Vincent (rip 39) Pascal and some of the others have hardly ever been on meds. Pascal especially, never been on meds, still isn't to this day. He's 42 months old!
I do know that with rats and with humans the instinct to survive is strong. I don't think giving them meds or trying a medical procedure will ever be a "bad thing" to do for them.
My sister has asthma, and a few times had to be rushed to the hospital. If I were to ask her then and there, do you want me to put you to sleep, I doubt she'd say yes.
I also agree that every person has the right to make a decision that is best for them and their rats. That person is the one that loves them and like my vet has told me time and time again: there are no wrong answers. You do what you can.
I give my rats the very best because I am able to. Not because I think they will live longer, but because I want them to have the best possible life while on this earth, things like ferret toys, massive cages. The food, yes, that's to keep them more healthy. If I can prevent tumours, prevent kidney damage, prevent cancers then of course I will.
As far as cringing when seeing people having lots of rats in a small cage, well, that will never change. We don't know if those rats live 24/7 in that small cage, do they get out time like we give our rats? We don't know so we dwell on worse case scenario and it hurts.
I started with a 10 gallon tank, then moved on to that very tiny 690 martins cage. I had 5 rats in that cage. They did not come out to play either because I didn't know they liked that. If I compare those rats, to the rats I have now, I know my current rats are much happier. But mostly, because they get to come out and play with me.

As for the food... My rats are very happy with their veggies and their blocks. You can see on all the videos, they swarm me and not because I give them yoggies but because they are happy to see me. Rats are not exposed to all kinds of advertisements of bad foods so they don't know it's out there. They do not miss it. They do not need it. And if my rats will live longer because of it, then all the better for me and my rats.

 

[LA]

I think this is an excellent post.

Like Shelagh said, I think really knowing is between you and your rats. I know that when our dog Riley was going downhill, he was still happy to see you, stilll wanted to be with you, you could see the light in his eyes, he still loved life, even if he didn't feel well. We had to limit his exercise, he had to be fed special food, and he was given medicine every day. Then he stopped taking his pills, my mom had to start shoving them down his throat, very shortly after the light in his eyes went out. He didn't enjoy life, he wouldn't eat. My parents knew it was time. The meds kept him happy for a while but then, as we knew they would, they stopped doing the job. There does come a time when it's time to let them go. Unfortunately sometimes they or their bodies don't let them go and we have to help them along. I feel that pets in general have a high understand of things then we give them credit for. I think a rat with hind end degeneration understands at least to a point why they can't walk like the others. But that's just my view. I think each person has to individually assess the situation whether it's good to keep going or help your kid along.

 

[anita1216]

You find a happy medium, that line where you are comfortable. I have spent hundreds of dollars, always toeing that line of wondering when enough is enough. I spend alot of money trying to find comfy bedding, wonderful toys, that perfect food for them.

My first rats were poorly cared for when comparing them to the group I have now. I didnt know any better. I have learned from various places, internet sites and friends on what needs to be done better. I find out new things all the time. I like to think I am enlightened, that I have a clue.

This summer I lost my best friend and many others that were very much loved. I spent two weeks taking my Fergus everywhere with me. He couldnt eat or drink on his own, I was afraid he would lay in his own waste if I wasnt there to move him and clean him up. He slept with me every night. I made sure he was clean, fed and watered and warm. In the end I had to let him go and my heart breaks still, knowing that despite my best efforts, he had to leave me for someplace better.

I suppose where Im going is that we all make choices, take the high road and sometimes the low road. In the end all that matters is that I know I loved them and they loved me for the effort. My rats know I care and they are grateful for that. I think thats one of the things I love best about rats, they seem to show the appreciation for the smallest things we do for them.

 

[Fidget]

My rats know I care

Yes anita! :bow: It would be so much easier if I could just keep my focus on that, cause that's what really matters - they know if they're happy or not, and I'm convinced that they can sense their importance & value to us and where they stand in our hearts, totally apart from what we feed them or how we house them or whether we can afford tumor removals & such. I think a rattie that is greeted with joy and played with every day when they're out of their small cage is going to feel more valued than one in a big cage that only gets a pat when the food is put in and only gets outings during cage cleans.

But because I'm on handicapped assistance and can only save all my GST & income tax for them and then whatever else I can sock away, I go thru this every once in a while. I get sidetracked by the boards, seeing other people doing things for their kids that I can't, and sometimes I do worry about other people's expectations of me. I've questioned whether I should have them if I can't afford surgeries. Certainly I will take them to the vet if they're sick and I don't know what to do or they need meds, but I can't do tumor removals and keep paying bills and still keep a vet fund for exams & meds. I end up telling myself that what I can't give them if surgeries are needed I make up in time I can spend with them. I can give them happy lives and all the love & respect they can take, and if I quit taking them then they could do worse.

That was easier when I took them from the spca where they were plentiful and they had a better chance of being snake food or a kid's practice pet than having someone take them who would be getting them the surgeries I can't. Now rescue groups are taking them out of there, and I'm getting them from the rescue group. So I'm back to weighing my abilities in their options..

Before I got my computer and found the rat sites it was as you said lilspaz - those crappy little 20 page books don't tell you anything. I've thanked god (and the people on the ratsites) so often for all the help and the suggestions that have made me a better mom and enhanced (or saved) my kids lives.

Along with seeing people who can do better in some ways than me tho I also see people who are just like I was in the beginning, with a small cage, feeding them what they eat, and my 1st instinct is go 'eek' but then I wonder if I should. My first kids really were just as happy as my kids are now with their much more cage space. And in spite of a better diet now my kids don't seem to be living any longer. (And actually I can't remember the last day I didn't have somebody to medicate, where it was a rare thing with my earlier kids and a short course, not the ongoing or periodic but repeated episodes I've had with my current kids... And I used to smoke around them in the beginning too!!! - til I got my computer and came to the sites). So I have to ask myself if I'm really being so righteous when I 'refrain' from judging others by my standards - maybe my standards are more questionable than their care?

:gaah: I dunno, I just dunno... It's hard to keep it in perspective sometimes. If I could just remember that it is about how the kids feel each & every day, including what they know by their instincts is in my heart for them - and they are the only judge that matters. My kids know if they're happy, and if they get PTS cause they have something that makes peace kinder than the life I can give them then I believe as all-knowing spirits who can see it all know that mom gave them the best life she could as far as she could..

Only me & my kids know when I'm doing my best or not, and they're the only ones I have to answer to apart from myself. And like everyone else here I'm my harshest critic.
But if I honestly ask myself "When you get to heaven how many of your kids felt cared about enough to care enough to show up at the gate to speak for your right to enter?"
I can answer with total confidence "If it's tonight I expect 34 ratties and some cats, dogs, lizards, a hamster, the fish that came to the surface when I crossed the bridge.. don't know about my sister's bird & turtles.. and hopefully some kids of various ilks that I babysat. 3 foster ratties I don't know if they're there or here, and the 4 ratties I have now I hope are as loved as I love them til they get here" That's the certainty that really matters, isn't it?

 

[anita1216]

Ya know Fidget, I think at the end of the day..go ahead you can breath easy. You are enlightened, you are aware and thats a whole lot more good right there than many can claim. The simple fact you question it all, thats love and concern in its finest form IMO.

For the most part this is an entirely wonderful group, we all have something still to learn. Having the money to spend wont make anyone a better owner, it just makes some choices a whole lot easier. Weigh it all and then feel around, deep down in the heart, if its laying easy on the mind, then its the right thing for you.

Dont struggle, dont push, let it come. Your rats are very lucky critters. :nod: :cuddle: