Advice: biting cagemate's ears, base of tail

[ratmando]

Hey everyone! Two of my 9 month old dumbo girls, Tavi and Star, live together in half a CN. They are not siblings, but when I got them from separate owners (they were about 5 months old) and introed them, they became friends very quickly. When I got Tavi, she had an inner ear infection and was treated, and she still has a bit of a residual head tilt. She is fearless, jumps off of beds, etc. Her and Star were two peas in a pod. Tavi, although smaller, was alpha and would often power groom Star who would lay there and squeak a little, but not mind. Now, (about 4 months later), Star has been picking on Tavi for a few weeks, chasing her and nipping at the base of her tail so that there are little red marks, and nips at her ears too. She power grooms Tavi, on her ears, hard enough to break the skin. Tavi squeaks a lot, sometimes louder than just a 'protest' squeak and she does not sleep with Star in the same hammock any more. :sad3: Lately I have put diluted tea tree oil on the base of Tavi's tail in an effort to deter Star from biting there, and it has kind of worked, but not completely. Since they lick at Polysporin, I don't want to put it on Tavi's ears for healing...the last thing I want is for Star to be drawn it. I tried putting diluted tea tree oil on Tavi's ears, to keep Star away, but the pungent oil so close to her nose and eyes made her obviously uncomfortable so I didn't go ahead with it. I don't think it's a good idea to use something that would harm or irritate sensitive membranes.

Does anyone have any advice about this change of behaviour, what I could do (I don't want to separate them unless really necessary), what to put on her ears so Star won't hurt them? Here's a pic, not a very good one, but the best I could get for now, she's very active and seldom still. Her ears are not torn, the one looks like it, but it's the angle of the camera. Her right ear has some dots from before that have healed, but Star is persistent and Tavi's ears never get a chance to heal completely.

 

[SQ]

Are the girls spayed?
Do you notice it happening more at any particular time?
Any new rats or other changes?
Who lives in the other half of the CN?

 

[jorats]

And to add to SQ's questions, how is Tavi with you? Could both girls have mites/lice? That can sometimes affect a rat to be a bully.
My vet had suggested using bitter apple the stuff you use to deter dogs from chewing on one of my mom's rats who was being overly groomed too. Maybe you could try that? Another thing you could use is that stuff parents use to put on their kid's thumbs to stop thumb sucking. Can't remember the name of that stuff.

 

[ratmando]

Thanks both of you! Answers: no they are not spayed, the top half of the CN are Toffee, Tulla, and Piper 3 girls (I don't have any male rats) and this is a new living arrangement, Tavi and Star used to be in a separate cage...I was wondering if the proximity of three rats above them has caused this. I can't remember now if the ear and tail biting was going on in their other cage or not. I wish I could remember! The top three girls are quite huffy about the bottom two girls, (the new CN living arrangements are from about 3 or 4 weeks ago) and there is sometimes a tug-of-war going on with the two groups if the fleecie corners from the top half of the CN shelf dangle through to the roof of the bottom half...Tulla in the top half gets all in a snit (she's usually very sweet and relaxed) and tries to tug it back, while both Star and Tavi tug like maniacs from the bottom. Now Tulla goes to each corner of the shelf and pulls the fleecie up so that they can't get at it.

There are two new rats Lily and Iris who live in Star and Tavi's old cage next to the CN, but they came on board back in April, and I tried intros with them and Tavi/Star but it didn't go well at all. Back then, Star was not biting Tavi's ears/tail.

I can put Tavi and Star back in their old cage (where Lily and Iris currently live) and put Lily and Iris in the CN instead. I can also get that bitter apple stuff, do all of these things, see how it goes?

 

[ratmando]

Thanks both of you! Answers: no they are not spayed, the top half of the CN are Toffee, Tulla, and Piper 3 girls (I don't have any male rats) and this is a new living arrangement, Tavi and Star used to be in a separate cage...I was wondering if the proximity of three rats above them has caused this. I can't remember now if the ear and tail biting was going on in their other cage or not. I wish I could remember! The top three girls are quite huffy about the bottom two girls, (the new CN living arrangements are from about 3 or 4 weeks ago) and there is sometimes a tug-of-war going on with the two groups if the fleecie corners from the top half of the CN shelf dangle through to the roof of the bottom half...Tulla in the top half gets all in a snit (she's usually very sweet and relaxed) and tries to tug it back, while both Star and Tavi tug like maniacs from the bottom. Now Tulla goes to each corner of the shelf and pulls the fleecie up so that they can't get at it.

There are two new rats Lily and Iris who live in Star and Tavi's old cage next to the CN, but they came on board back in April, and I tried intros with them and Tavi/Star but it didn't go well at all. Back then, Star was not biting Tavi's ears/tail.

I can put Tavi and Star back in their old cage (where Lily and Iris currently live) and put Lily and Iris in the CN instead. I can also get that bitter apple stuff, do all of these things, see how it goes?

Oh, and Tavi is fine with me, she seems happy and normal otherwise, as normal as she can be...she is a bit odd, her residual head tilt, her crazy jumping off of high places, no fear of injuring herself...I have to keep an eye on her.

 

[jorats]

Ok, you've explained her change in behaviour... the close proximity to the other girls and having one of them send out massive bully signals. That's why Tavi is reacting that way.
Do you have plans of introing everyone together? Do they have out time in the same spot/ not at the same time?
If you don't plan on introducing them, then you could wait it out a bit and Tavi might settle down or you could move the two girls back to their old cage to relieve that stress.

 

[ratmando]

Thanks Jorats and SQ, I'm so glad I posted this issue. :bow: They do not have out time in the same place - Star and Tavi do not stay put on any surface so they have out time in our bedroom all over the place. They are the only rats we let loose there, so the smells are all their own. The three huffy amigas, Toffee, Tulla and Piper, have out time on the 'playground' and nowhere else. I do not plan in introing them to Star and Tavi. I have to clean cages today, so I'll move Star and Tavi back to their old cage and Lily and Iris into the bottom of the CN...they are very calm, sweet sisters with hardly a lick of bossiness with each other, so maybe they will fare ok with the huffy amigas upstairs and not take out anything on each other. :thumbup: And, I'll get the bitter apple stuff to help the process.

 

[jorats]

Keep us posted! Those are some nasty ear bites.

 

[ratmando]

I'll get a pic later today to show you...Tavi's ears are healed and no more bite marks! Plus, Star stopped chasing her around and biting at the base of her tail. :joy: I'm so relieved, thanks to all of you for your advice. :hugs: I did move them out from the bottom of the CN (now the three huffy amigas are huffy over Lily and Iris who took up residence below, but Lily and Iris don't take out displaced hostility on each other). I also gave Star and Tavi a dose of Revolution just in case. I'd had a minor mite issue recently, so have treated all the girls. All is pretty much back to normal. :dance:

 

[jorats]

That's really great news!

 

[EDK]

Phew bullet dodge, glad everyone is sorted for you

 

[hopefloats]

any change a rat goes through as far as cages you can pretty much expect an uproar in attitudes. Even in well mannered rats. Could her ear have been bitten by the girls upstairs?

they heal rather fast I dont generally treat any surface wound. Only puncture marks. I have found it seems to take my girls a lot longer to adjust to a change than boys. If you are planning to do intros or even if you are not planning you could switch cage sections out. That will allow them to get used to the smell rather than just seeing it.

 

[Joanne]

I do not plan in introing them to Star and Tavi.

Any reason why? I much prefer having one big group to several smaller groups...

 

[ratmando]

I do not plan in introing them to Star and Tavi.

Any reason why? I much prefer having one big group to several smaller groups...

Believe me, I'd love a bigger group! I tried intros with the Star/Tavi crazy dumbo duo, and Lily/Iris, and it did not go well at all. Lily and Iris are very laid back and sweet, and Star and Tavi were ruthless and crazy mean to them. Iris was not happy at all, and I kept the intros going for quite a while until I felt so sad for her being beaten up constantly. I decided it was better not to stress out Lily and Iris and make them unhappy. As for Toffee, Tulla and Piper, they are like a junior high clique, Tori Spelling et al. They are like snooty stuck up girls, and they don't want anything to do with other rats. Toffee and Piper in particular puff up and fight viciously. I know, I would like to have consolidated these girls because colonies are more natural and they need more than one friend, and to save on cleaning cages, but it hasn't worked out. Luckily, Piper was introduced to Toffee and Tulla when they were much younger and it worked out fine. And, Star and Tavi were introed, and they're good buddies. I tried for a while to take in single females to hook them up with buddies, and it has worked out for the most part. I suppose I could've tried for longer to consolidate even more girls, but they're happy, and it was too ugly.