Whale kills trainer as horrified spectators watch

[ClownCarOnFire]

Are you suggesting they aren't cared for at all? So SeaWorld does NO good at all? Animals die, it's part of life. I am fairly certain that people would notice if there was something suspicious going on.
I believe the trainers care for these animals. I don't believe they are being abused.
End of story.
I want to work with wild animals in the future, in the form on building a sanctuary for wild animals unable to be released into the wild. Oh, but I guess that means I don't care for the animals and only want money, aye?
I am such a cruel, heartless being.

Ugh.

Oh and for the record, I never said they have it good in captivity. Clearly the wild is better.
But once again, this is an imperfect world we're living in.

You are the posterchild for being brainwashed - you really need to learn more about what goes on in these places.
And if you allow three of your employees to be killed by an animal in your 'sanctuary' then you won't only be heartless but you would be stupid to boot.

Um. Gee, thanks a lot for making assumptions as though I am completely ignorant. I know plenty, I am not a sheep who will believe anything I am told.
Also, if you believe that Sea World is responsible for the deaths of 3 people by that Orca, YOU are mistaken.
They took him in after he killed the second person so he would have a place to go.
Don't make assumptions about me when you know absolutely nothing about me other than I am not in favor of hating every place that houses wild animals.

 

[ClownCarOnFire]

I do personally believe the animals are being loved and cared for.

In 22 years, 21 orcas have died in US SeaWorld facilities alone - NONE of them of old age. Does that sound like they are being well cared for? Does that sound as if SeaWorld is keen on 'conservation' of orcas? Marineland has had a slew of deaths over the last couple of years and only a couple have made the news. Most deaths are quickly swept under the rug.
They do not have a better quality of life in captivity when hundreds upon hundreds of whales, which include dolphins and orcas, have died in captivity and not one of them has lived anywhere near as long as they do in the wild.
How can anyone say they have it good in captivity with a straight face?

Are you suggesting they aren't cared for at all? So SeaWorld does NO good at all? Animals die, it's part of life. I am fairly certain that people would notice if there was something suspicious going on.
I believe the trainers care for these animals. I don't believe they are being abused.
End of story.
I want to work with wild animals in the future, in the form on building a sanctuary for wild animals unable to be released into the wild. Oh, but I guess that means I don't care for the animals and only want money, aye?
I am such a cruel, heartless being.

Ugh.

If you have good intentions thats great! It would be great to work with these kind of animals. Unfortunately my view on it is that they should be left in the wild. BUT that is only my view.

I'm sorry, I may have misworded what I said to make it sound bad so I will clarify. I was NOT saying that the trainer in this case abused the whale, and I was not saying that all trainers abuse their animals. People have abused animals (we know that for sure when we see pictures of rescued rats from nasty situations and all those pictures of rat mills). Trainers are people. Not EVERY trainer abuses their animals but I am sure some secretly do. Most love and care for their animals. There are always bad apples out there. It is a possibility. I was just saying its a possibility. AND you also never know. Sometimes the people you wouldn't expect are the worst. I still don't agree with trainers and I still don't agree with captivity but this is my opinion.

Edited for spelling

Oh no worries, I wasn't irked with you. :hugs:
You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, I just though I too was allowed to voice mine. But apparently other users think otherwise. =\

I make one statement and apparently I am ignorant due to it. Yeah, that'll change my mind all right.

 

[Ewa]

You know, I don't like that we keep animals in captivity, but realistically, somewhere along the line, wouldn't someone have had to domesticate every animal we keep as pets now, keeping a wild creature in a habitat that they didn't belong in? Don't we still have rats that bite us? Were they bigger I'm sure they'd eat us when they weren't happy with whatever we were doing, be it touching them or otherwise. The only difference is, we're much smaller than a killer whale.
Again, I don't like that we're keeping them in areas much smaller than the ocean, but I mean... I feel like a hypocrite if I really say anything on any bit of this matter to one side or the other.
On the other hand, it is sad that the trainers die from this, and you'd think they'd have learned that this wasn't a happy whale the first two times.

I totally Agree , i think my rats would be much happier with me if theye had run of the house

 

[Vanessa]

Um. Gee, thanks a lot for making assumptions as though I am completely ignorant. I know plenty, I am not a sheep who will believe anything I am told.
Also, if you believe that Sea World is responsible for the deaths of 3 people by that Orca, YOU are mistaken.
They took him in after he killed the second person so he would have a place to go.
Don't make assumptions about me when you know absolutely nothing about me other than I am not in favor of hating every place that houses wild animals.

:wallbang:

 

[ClownCarOnFire]

Um. Gee, thanks a lot for making assumptions as though I am completely ignorant. I know plenty, I am not a sheep who will believe anything I am told.
Also, if you believe that Sea World is responsible for the deaths of 3 people by that Orca, YOU are mistaken.
They took him in after he killed the second person so he would have a place to go.
Don't make assumptions about me when you know absolutely nothing about me other than I am not in favor of hating every place that houses wild animals.

:wallbang:

Let's just agree to disagree, you're treating me as if I am the entire problem here, simply because I don't agree 100% with what you say.
For the record, I have never even BEEN to Sea World.
I just am not gonna agree with all the hatred towards Sea World because a bunch of extremist PETA members are.
I never claimed to be right with all this, these are merely opinions.

 

[Dahlas]

It is great to discuss things. There are so many points of view but lets try and keep it civil. No insulting each other please. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.
Trust me I know how hard this can be to remember. :cheeky:

 

[ClownCarOnFire]

It is great to discuss things. There are so many points of view but lets try and keep it civil. No insulting each other please. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.
Trust me I know how hard this can be to remember. :cheeky:

Amen to that, Dahlas.

 

[Vanessa]

Jesus Christ! Here we go with PETA bashing again. I swear to God that people bait me on purpose.
I don't need PETA, or any organization for that matter, to tell me that sticking an orca into the equivalent of a swimming pool alone for 40 years is wrong.
I look at those pictures and my brain tells me that it's wrong, my common sense tells me it's wrong, and my heart screams at me that it is wrong. And because of that, I will go to my grave telling people it is wrong.

 

[Sorraia]

What zoos also don't tell you about is the fact that they have been extremely unsuccessful in re-introducing endangered animals into the wild. They make a big deal of it when it originally happens, but then are very quiet about the final results.
Captivity is a holocaust for animals like orcas. They are literally ripped away from their families at a young age, removed from social pods of sometimes 30+ close members, prevented from doing what nature intended them to do like hunt for food and swim hundreds of kilometres a week, and forced to a pathetic life of solitary confinement broken only by food deprevation and being bossed around by some puny human.
Captivity is not about education, it is about money. Nobody learns anything about any animals kept in captivity. That is the same as saying that you would get educated about how humans live by driving to Kingston and Millhaven and walking people up and down the cellblocks. Prisoners have much of what they have on the outside too, TV, clothes, food, books, water, toilet, but that isn't the way people are supposed to live because we are supposed to be FREE. So are animals meant to be free. Animals in captivity of any kind are serving a sentence for crimes they never committed.
To top it all off, SeaWorld is resuming it's orca show in a couple of days. Is the trainers body even cold yet?
They're ALL greedy scum.

Again it depends on the animal, as well as the facility. Not all facilities are created equal, and not all captive breeding programs take place in a zoo. There are private facilities not open to the public that have captive breeding programs. As for success of the release - that depends partially on the species, how it was raised, how it was trained for release, etc. For some species there is more success than others. Part of it has to do with the species specific needs. Is the species too acclimated to a certain living condition (for example, fish, with specific water chemistry, temperature, etc requirements) to be released? Is the animal too imprinted on people? These are going to determine how successful the reintroduction is. Part of it has to do with research too. For some of these species, reintroduction is not yet successful because there is not enough knowledge about the animal in question, their needs, how they live, how they breed, how they survive, etc. There are certainly facilities, zoos, marine parks, etc that ARE greedy scum. I would agree Sea World is one of these. There are other facilities that on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, not even open to the public.

 

[Maple]

In 22 years, 21 orcas have died in US SeaWorld facilities alone - NONE of them of old age.

Could you post were this research has taken place. I think it would be interesting to read.

 

[anita1216]

It is cruel what they do to orcas in capitvity, they have no room and their normal social behavior is restricted.
I have been to Sea World (Orlando) once in my life. I stood and stared at an orca and she stared back at me for the longest time. It was a huge wall of glass, you had to go under ground sort of to see it. It broke my heart to see her stuffed into such a small tank, this giant animal being forced to live on display.
Sure I could reading a whole lot into what I saw, it really does not matter. Orcas do not belong in captivity, doing stupid tricks.
There is no excuse for having these animals in captivity, well other than someone to be making a whole lot of money.

 

[Alicemcmallis]

There's a huge difference between running a sanctuary for wild animals that can't be rehabilitated into the wild and capturing them from their natural habitat and putting them somewhere they're used purely for entertainment purposes. Esp. since the sanctuaries are usually rescuing te animals FROM the places that are using them for profit.

I will never forget the outcry against Marineland capturing their belugas from the ocean a number of years ago, and they were still allowed to go forward with it. Just the thought of it still brings me to tears, and at this point I'm pretty cynical. What places like Sea World and Marineland do to those animals is digusting and disgraceful. I don't doubt that some of the people that work there do care for the animals and think they're doing right by them. It doesn't make what they're doing any less reprehensible though.

So SeaWorld does NO good at all?

Correct, Sea World does no good at all. It does lots of harm.

The comparison to pet animals is false logic. Pets are already domesticated - if there was damage done by doing that, it's been done and there's no going back. It's generally accepted that they should be cared for in a specific way to provide them with lots of living space and mental and physical stimulation. The same cannot be said for animals in most zoos or marine parks.

 

[crumbilina]

The comparison to pet animals is false logic. Pets are already domesticated - if there was damage done by doing that, it's been done and there's no going back. It's generally accepted that they should be cared for in a specific way to provide them with lots of living space and mental and physical stimulation. The same cannot be said for animals in most zoos or marine parks.

That's true, It was an interesting thought to begin with. It would be interesting to see if there are records on how our pets were domesticated. Something to look up on a rainy (or snowy) day!

 

[fenshae]

That's true, It was an interesting thought to begin with. It would be interesting to see if there are records on how our pets were domesticated. Something to look up on a rainy (or snowy) day!

We do know (or at least have fairly well-accepted speculation) about at least some of our domesticated animals. Keep in mind that a number of animals we've kept have been with us for a LONG time, since before the notion of "civilization", so it's a little fuzzy obviously. But some animals appear to have almost domesticated themselves by choosing to cohabitate with humans as it was mutually beneficial. Cats, for example, they believe started living with/near humans because the humans frightened away larger predators and their grain stores etc. attracted rodents so they had easy prey. Similar with dogs, people have theorized that the first dogs were wolf-ancestors that started staying around humans to eat their scraps (again, easy food) and humans liked having them around because they provided extra security.

Other animals were originally domesticated to be eaten. I believe we raised horses as a meat animal before we started using them as transportation. Guinea pigs were also raised for meat and are still eaten in some places...same for rabbits.

The notion of animals-as-pets-with-their-own-rights is a pretty new concept to human society. Until maybe the last hundred years or so animals had to earn their keep by working to serve man -- and in return, they get shelter, food, etc. Then again, that's consistent with how life was for *everything* 100 years ago. Children, for example, were treated much differently and also had to "earn their keep".

Things change, and sometimes not all at a steady rate....

 

[crumbilina]

That's true, It was an interesting thought to begin with. It would be interesting to see if there are records on how our pets were domesticated. Something to look up on a rainy (or snowy) day!

We do know (or at least have fairly well-accepted speculation) about at least some of our domesticated animals. Keep in mind that a number of animals we've kept have been with us for a LONG time, since before the notion of "civilization", so it's a little fuzzy obviously. But some animals appear to have almost domesticated themselves by choosing to cohabitate with humans as it was mutually beneficial. Cats, for example, they believe started living with/near humans because the humans frightened away larger predators and their grain stores etc. attracted rodents so they had easy prey. Similar with dogs, people have theorized that the first dogs were wolf-ancestors that started staying around humans to eat their scraps (again, easy food) and humans liked having them around because they provided extra security.

Other animals were originally domesticated to be eaten. I believe we raised horses as a meat animal before we started using them as transportation. Guinea pigs were also raised for meat and are still eaten in some places...same for rabbits.

The notion of animals-as-pets-with-their-own-rights is a pretty new concept to human society. Until maybe the last hundred years or so animals had to earn their keep by working to serve man -- and in return, they get shelter, food, etc. Then again, that's consistent with how life was for *everything* 100 years ago. Children, for example, were treated much differently and also had to "earn their keep".

Things change, and sometimes not all at a steady rate....

Its a very interesting history that I had not even thought of looking into. My head is stuck in infectious disease books hahaha

BUT I think that I will have to take a look now that you have given me a bit of a taste of it.

 

[ClownCarOnFire]

So SeaWorld does NO good at all?

Correct, Sea World does no good at all. It does lots of harm.[/quote]



I see.
So I guess they shouldn't have given Tilikum a home when he killed the second person? Just let him be put to sleep. Aye?

I mean, you can't release him back tot he wild after so many years, remember Keiko.
And I am with Jack Hanna, they have done some good. It's not the ideal, but they're not pure evil. 8\

I think it's funny too how instead of actually doing something about it, we're just sitting here on a forum arguing with each other.
That won't solve anything at all, if nothing else it'll ruin relationships.

 

[Maple]

sitting here on a forum arguing with each other. That won't solve anything at all, if nothing else it'll ruin relationships.

So true clown you have made the most important point of all.

 

[ClownCarOnFire]

sitting here on a forum arguing with each other. That won't solve anything at all, if nothing else it'll ruin relationships.

So true clown you have made the most important point of all.

I am guilty of retaliation, but since I have already voiced my view before, there's really nothing more for me to say on this subject.
So I am not posting more on this thread after this one.

I just hope we can all agree to disagree and live and let live. *Shrug*

 

[Alicemcmallis]

So I guess they shouldn't have given Tilikum a home when he killed the second person? Just let him be put to sleep. Aye?

No they shouldn't have given him a home, they should have let him be put to sleep. Now he's killed another person, and is still living a miserable existence himself.

I do want to know what good you think SeaWorld has done though, aside from taking in this whale and preventing him from being euthanized? I know you said you didn't want to post on this thread anymore, but I genuinely don't see how a company like that does any good. Some zoos you can argue the education aspect, but isn't SeaWorld all about entertainment?

It's hard not to say things on threads like this when you feel so strongly about the topic, when you think that animals are being mistreated. You want everyone to understand what you believe the animals are suffering.

 

[ryelle]

There are some animal parks around the world that i believe are good places. For the animals and for people - education etc. I will (hopefully) one day work in a zoo/conservation program, because that is what i want to do.

But yes, i agree with alicemcmallis that this whale should have been euthanised a long time ago. I dont see how he could have a good life now. Nobody will give him the mental and physical stimulation that he would otherwise be getting if a member of staff could interact with him, but now that three people have died nobody will do that (..and i dont think id suggest they do either..)

I think its the only outcome for him now.

You know, Zoo's (atleast some over here) have stopped housing Elephants because they cannot reproduce the natural environment as much as they would like to. Elephants roam a large area of land per day and in a zoo that just isn't possible... yet a killer whale is what.. about the same size? a bit bigger?