Congestive Heart Failure?

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abby3089

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
78
Location
Washington, DC
So I've had a couple posts now about how long it's taken for my three rat girls to get over a never-ending URI (3 months on different meds). The two younger sisters (4 months) are nearly all better with 2 weeks to go on antibiotics, with the exception of a little whistle and a sneeze every so often -- so I'm not worried. However, my older girl (10 months old) is a different story...

Izzie, the older girl, is slightly better on antibiotics, but she still has constant nasal/lung noises. They almost always seem dry - usually it's a grunt, or as if her breathing has a harshness to it. It's pretty quiet though -- you always have to ratphone her. She will sneeze porphyrin on occasion from her nose. But she isn't having lots of sneezes or sneezing fits or struggling to breathe. She is a lot happier/peppier on the meds than she was before. BUT here's the worrying thing: I've noticed her breathing is more pronounced (you can see her sides move a little, tiny bit more than usual when she breathes, sometimes she is a little more stationary than usual just standing in one place for a while and staring, sometimes her body temperature feels a little cooler than normal, and her body feels... weird. I want to say it almost feels like her rib cage is more expanded than it should be. She's a little overweight and always has been despite a pretty strict diet-- not by much -- but her abdoman feels a little big too... It's really hard to describe and I'm doing a terrible job of it. And it's not something you can see well in pictures either. But her body feels very different than the two younger girls bodies. I know they are younger -- but it's almost like anatomically I can tell something is off about Izzie.

I took her to the vet and had the vet examine her. She noted the slight harshness to her breathing, but said it wasn't pneumonia or anything worrying, just a normal URI and I should continue the baytril and doxy. I asked her directly about CHF, and she said her heart sounded fine. But I seriously doubt her abilities as a rat vet.

Ages ago, my breeder warned me that she unfortunately found that Izzie is related to a line of rats that she stopped breeding because the boys in the line had a predisposition to CHF at a young age (8 months) if they were also obese. But she said she never saw it in a female in the line... at least not yet.. but wanted me to be on my guard nevertheless. I should also mention, Izzie's full sister that I also had died from kidney failure at 6 months old.

Do any of the symptoms sound like CHF? Should I be worried? Is CHF treatable but terminal? Is kidney failure and CHF related? Is it likely she will suffer or die peacefully? My poor girl -- she's had such a tough life.
 
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If your rats are not responding to the antibiotics, I would suggest that you try baytril + azithromycin (10 mg/Ib to 15 mg/Ib) twice a day for at least 6 weeks - if this combo helps.
You can also try baytril + dozy + azithromycin (10 mg/Ib to 15 mg/Ib) twice a day for at least 6 weeks if the baytril + azithromycin isn't enough.
If lungs get congested add Lasix for a short while, but watch for dehydration (skin on the back of the neck) ... and make sure you have your vet teach you how to give a rat sub-Q fluids and that you buy the materials you will need.

When I have a rat with respiratory issues that do not respond to the various combinations of antibiotics,
then we test dose with enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day, to start) or benazepril (0.3 mg/Ib, twice a day).

If the rat improves, a heart problem is assumed and atenolol (1 mg/Ib twice a day, to start) is added.
Then we do an xray and if my rat's heart is enlarged, digoxin (0.0025 mg/Ib twice a day, to start) is added.
(If the heart is not enlarged, then the rat continues the other two meds. The heart may become enlarged in the furture.)

The rat may also need lasix (1-2 mg/Ib twice a day, to start) if fluid is building up in it's lungs.

A rat with CHF may be more likely to develop respiratory infections so antibiotics may also be needed from time to time.

(I am not a vet. This info is based on both my experience and the "Rat Health Care" book.
Some medications need to be increased or doubled as the disease progresses.) If antibiotics do not clear up the problem,

Unfortunately, I have had a great deal of experience with CHF. Please see http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25056&highlight=digoxin
Meds may give a rat with CHF a good quality life, however the heart disease will continue to worsen.

Rats with CHF will eventually need to be humanely put to sleep by your vet. Otherwise, it is a horrible death with great suffering.
Please see the following for info on how to have a rat humanely put to sleep http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7652
 
Your description sounds familiar. I have also had my share of rats with heart issues... what I usually say is if at all possible, get an x-ray. All my heart issue cases were linked to an enlarged heart and fluid in the lungs, which both can be seen on the x-ray. If she's been on abs for a while and is breathing abdominally, and if she seems more tired than usual, I would go that route, as these are my warning signs...

Currently, I have my ~30 month old Jay on Lasix (for fluid), Pimobendan and Enalapril since last September. The meds helped empty his lungs and reduce the size of his heart a little, and he's been stable for months. :D

Good luck to the both of you!
 
Thanks for the response guys. The two little ones are really going to be OK I think. The doxy and baytril seems to be working. But I'll keep zithro in mind for Izzie...

My feeling is that this is more than a URI. She doesn't seem to have fluid in the lungs, and honestly, she's really not sneezing that much. It's just these dry persistent noises when I ratphone her, and the strange feeling when I handle her. If I can confirm with the vet it is definitely CHF, do you think it's worth treating her and keeping her going? In your experiences how long have rats lasted on meds and what is there quality of life? Or should I consider pre-emptively putting her to sleep? I love her to pieces and don't want to lose her. However, I would rather euthanize her while her quality of life is still manageable, rather than having her struggle for one nano-second if her decline is inevitable. I don't want to keep her alive just for me. But I don't want to be unethical about this...

She's had a really tough life. She's never been the same since her sister died. She's had a URI pretty much ever since, and now it seems like her heart literally may be broken. :(
 
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I always caught my rats later with their heart until Jay, and the meds kept them going about a monht, then they would decline and I had to put them to sleep. But Jay was diagnosed early and is still doing very good after 9 months of treatment, even if he has reached a very respective age. If confirmed, I'd at least try treating and see if she responds. If she keeps declining, then, that's another story...
 
My Eben is was 2 on Feb 27 and he is presently on benazepril atenolol digoxin and Lasix. Eben is doing fine and is happy and active. Eventually he will need to be out to sleep but hopefully that will be a long long time from now.

My Psalty was 1 yr in May. Psalty has an enlarged heart (he was accidently xrayed when he was a few months old as he looked a lot like another rat who needed to be xrayed). Since Psalty is not showing any symptoms, he is not yet on any medication.

How long your rattie does well on meds depends on the progression of the disease.
An xray will show if your rat has an enlarged heart (but not other heart problems), it will also show if there is lung damage (such as pulmonary abscesses and scar tissue), and if fluid is building up in the lungs.

You test dose with benazepril or enalapril to see if there is a heart problem. If there is a heart problem, then you add atenolol.
With heart problems, fluid will build up in the lungs so Lasix is given to remove fluid ... that is why it is important to check for dehydration by pulling up the skin on the back of the neck - if it the skin doesn't snap back when released, then your rattie is dehydrated and needs fluids.

Not all heart problems involve an enlarged heart. If you test dose and the meds help, then you get an xray to see if the heart is enlarged. The xray will also show if fluid is building up in the lungs but your vet should be able to hear if fluid is in the lungs. Digoxin is only given if your rat's heart is enlarged but if your rat's heart is enlarged, it makes a huge difference to quality of life.

Rats with chf suffer when the fluid builds up in their lungs as it makes it difficult for them to breath. They will gasp for breath, hang their heads down trying to breath and may panic. That is why you give Lasix .... to keep this from happening, to keep fluid from being retained in the lungs. Since you can increase the amount and the number of times lasix is given, you can prevent your rat from experiencing this by having your rat humanely put to sleep by your vet when the medications stop working well enough and your rat is finding it increasingly difficult to breath. But watch out for dehydration and be able to give sub-Q fluids as it is a balancing act between being hydrated and removing fluid from the lungs.

Lasix (furosemide) is a diuretic
enalapril and benazepril are ACE inhibitors that lower blood pressure
Atenolol is a beta-blocker that slows the heart beat to improve effectiveness
Digoxin helps the heart beat more strongly but is only given when the heart is enlarged

I would suggest that you find out what is wrong,
Then look at possible treatments, quality of life and cost.

If your Izzie has CHF then meds will probably give her a good quality life for awhile. Every rat is different so all you can do is try.
 
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