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jorats

Loving rats since 2002.
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
45,196
Location
Northeastern Ontario
Written by Sorraia

I recently wrote an article to help people choose the next place to pick out a pet rat. I thought it would be worthwhile to post here for anyone interested. It is focused mostly on breeders, but I certainly do not recommend breeders as the "only" source for rats. Good rescues and shelters are another wonderful place to find rats. The main purpose of this article is to help people who have decided to go to a breeder, pick out the right breeder.

PS - Moderators feel free to move this thread if it would better fit in a different forum.

Direct link: http://blackwolfrattery.com/gpage3.html

When looking for a breeder to adopt rats from, one should be careful and cautious. Just like in the dog world, there are good breeders and bad breeders. Pet rats should be viewed like any other pet: You don’t just want the first animal you see, you want a very special animal you can bond with who has an excellent temperament and good health in its lineage. Many people know what makes a good dog breeder: one who breeds a limited number of litters a year, registers all dogs and offspring, acquires championships for all dogs before breeding, and performs all necessary health checks for the breed, as well as providing the best care possible. A person would not have to think twice about adopting a dog from a puppy mill or backyard breeder, someone who produces litter after litter just to fill a demand or make money with no thought to health, temperament, or structural integrity of the dogs. It seems like a “no-brainer” that one just doesn’t buy dogs from these sources, you may as well go to a pet store!

But what makes rats different? People never hesitate to buy rats from pet stores or the first breeder they meet, even if that breeder never seems to be without a litter and doesn’t keep track of lines. We want good pets in our rats right? So why do we treat them so differently from our dogs? The true answer is, we should put the same amount of time and effort into finding good rats as we do to find good dogs. There are a number of sources to pick our rats from, but which one really is the best?


Pet Stores

This should NEVER be an option. Just like one would never buy a dog from a pet store, one should never buy a pet rat from a pet store, even a “good” pet store that actually gives its animals proper care. The animals you see in pet stores are often produced by mill breeders, again breeders who breed litter after litter to meet a demand or make a profit. Usually the extent of their selection is for the pretty or popular colors, markings, and fur or ear types. There is very little, if any, thought put into the health or temperament of their animals produced. All too often you hear of someone who buys their first pet rat from a pet store, just to be in tears a week later because the animal died. A young, apparently healthy animal, died within a week of purchase. Or another common complaint is that the person’s rat suddenly turns vicious at six months of age. It wasn’t anything the person necessarily did wrong, simply that pet stores are not good sources for pets. Not only are the animals bred without thought of health or temperament, but pet stores are inherently breeding grounds for disease. With a large number of animals in a small space undergoing constant stressors, disease can run rampant. Some pet stores attempt to control disease by separating obviously sick animals, but some diseases can lay dormant for weeks. That apparently health animal at the date of purchase can mysteriously die within one to three weeks. The simple answer is the animal was carrying a deadly disease that required one to three weeks incubation time before symptoms first start showing. Such diseases include Sialodacryoadentitis Virus (SDA) and Sendai Virus, which are hard to treat and often fatal.

Pet stores rarely separate males and females, and all females purchased are likely to be pregnant. Even if there are no males in the enclosure at the time of adoption, she was likely exposed to one or more males at some point in the last week. It is a common complaint that a rat is purchased from a pet store, just to have twelve or more babies within two or three weeks. Some pet stores will designate some rats as “pets” and others as “feeders”. This is a deceiving designation, and often an excuse to charge more for the so-called “pets”. In reality, these two groups of rats may actually be from the very same litter. They have the same lineage and family health, they may even have the same temperament (good or bad). The only real difference is that those animals designated as “pets” happen to be prettier or more popular colors or varieties.


Rescues and Shelters

Rescues and shelters can potentially be good places to adopt a rat that offers many advantages. Often the rats come from less-than-desirable conditions. Many report the rats know when they have been adopted by a good home, and reward the good deed with much love and affection. However there are good rescues and bad rescues, and shelters should be approached with caution. Often shelters specialize in cats and dogs. They may take in small animals, but not understand proper socializing. These animals may not be handled, may not even receive a proper diet. When adopting such animals, be prepared for much time spent socializing these animals. Such animals may possibly A good rescue should specialize in just rats, or a couple small animals, but not rescue every animal under the sun. This just takes too much work and requires too many resources. Good rescues should be not-for-profit, and are run by adoption fees and donations, as well as the endless effort of countless volunteers. Good rescues also know their limits and don’t bring in any more animals than they have resources to care for those animals. Many rescues have a fostering system set up, where animals are placed in foster homes to receive proper care and socializing until they are adopted into permanent homes. All good rescues should charge an adoption fee. This fee may vary, depending on the degree of care and services applied to the animal. Some rescues require all animals be spayed or neuter before adoption, and often have a higher adoption fee to cover this cost. Others don’t require spays or neuters, and have a lower adoption fee. One should not be scared away from a rescue because of the adoption fee. Keep in mind rescues put countless hours and manual labor into caring for these animals. They don’t have a regular income, but operate on donations and adoption fees. Those adoption fees allow the rescue to care for other animals, as well as help rescue even more animals from horrible situations.

Bad rescues do exist also. These rescues may not have limits and take in more animals than they can care for. Some of these rescues will even breed the animals they have under their care, just to meet a demand or attract more adopters. Such behaviors are inexcusable, and these rescues should be avoided.


Breeders

Breeders are also good places to adopt a rat from. However not all breeders are equal. Technically anyone who puts two rats together and produces a litter is a breeder. This can be your neighborhood child who knows nothing about rats, or it could be an adult who has put countless hours of research into breeding and has gone the extra lengths to acquire suitable breeding animals. For these reasons, it is important for you as the adopter to put in your own extra effort to research breeders before choosing one to adopt from. The breeder you choose should not be the first one to answer your requests with babies available. Instead the breeder you choose should be one who is ethical, responsible, and reputable.

So what makes a breeder ethical? Ethics is defined as the principle of morals. This applies to rat breeding in how the breeder goes about their business as a breeder. It has to do with how the breeder chooses his or her pairs from which to produce litters, how he/she deals with the litters, when rats are bred, how many litters each rat is allowed to produce, and how the breeder finds homes for the resulting babies. Responsibility in regards to rat breeding has to do with the breeder’s accountability for their actions. Reputable breeders are those which are held in high regard by others for their ethics and responsibility as breeders.

Unfortunately most rat breeders do not fit these three criteria. Some come close in some areas, but fall short in others. The “Breeder Red Flags” is a list of characteristics adopters should be wary of in a breeder. The “Not Red Flags” list includes those characteristics that are not warning signs, and may in fact be signs of a good breeder. Fancy and attractive websites should not be the only determining factor of a good breeder. Adopters should also not adopt from the first breeder to respond with available babies. Instead adopters should contact breeders and conduct their own sort of interview.


Breeder "Red Flags"

Direct link with full explanations: http://blackwolfrattery.com/gpage33.html

There are several "red flags" an adopter should look for when picking a breeder from which to obtain rats. These "red flags" are warning signs that may indicate a breeder who is irresponsible, unethical, or disreputable. For more details, click on the statements below.

1) Breeder has “too many” animals.

2) Breeder always has litters available or breeds multiple litters at a time.

3) Breeder fosters out half their litters in order to breed more.

4) Breeder produces litters he/she has no intention of keeping babies from or "just to have a litter".

5) Breeder breeds for adopters, to meet a demand, or make a profit.

6) Breeder breeds immature animals often.

7) Breeder weans babies at less than four weeks of age.

8 ) Breeder kills (culls) babies for reasons other than as a last resort for an untreatable or incurable disease or injury.

9) Breeder does not keep track of the health and temperament of their lines. Breeder expects adopters to make special effort to keep in touch.

10) Breeder claims their lines are free of all health problems or defects.

11) Breeder’s only goals are focused on only one of the following: health, temperament, type, or color.

12) Breeder does not use proper standardized names for the varieties in their rattery.

13) Breeder charges more for popular varieties.

14) Breeder breeds wild rats or “hybrids”.

15) Breeder’s pedigree only offers names and colors of the rat’s ancestors. Breeder cannot share more in-depth knowledge of those rats.

16) Breeder provides minimal care or skips on important factors of care.

17) Breeder does not have a working relationship with a vet or avoids taking seriously ill or injured animals to the vet.

18 ) Breeder knowingly sells sick or injured animals.

19) Breeder does not observe proper quarantine.

20) Breeder is willing to ship by illegal means.

21) Breeder sells to pet stores or pet expos, or provides rats as reptile food.

22) Breeder will not take back animals they have produced.

23) Breeder asks for donations to keep their rattery running.

24) Breeder does not have an involved adoption procedure or detailed adoption agreement.

25) Breeder also breeds another species.

Breeder flags that are not "red flags"

Direct link with full explanations: http://blackwolfrattery.com/gpage34.html

There are some “flags”, or characteristics and behaviors, that some people may view unfavorably. Some of these are not really “red flags” though. They may in fact be the sign of a good breeder.

1) Breeder does not allow visitors into the rattery.

2) Breeder charges an adoption fee.

3) Breeder uses inbreeding or line-breeding as tools.

4) Breeder admits there are health problems in the line.

5) Breeder specializes in one or two varieties only.

6) Breeder also breeds another species.

7) Breeder has “quarantine homes” set up.

8 ) Breeder shows their animals.

9) Breeder is a member of one or several clubs.

10) Breeder makes a special effort to keep in touch with adopters.

11) Breeder specializes in unstandardized varieties, but is not making up names for standardized varieties.

12) Breeder has a combined goal for bettering health, temperament, type, and color.

13) Breeder weans babies at five weeks of age.

14) Breeder has an involved adoption procedure that requires the adopter to answer detailed questions, and requires the adopter to provide home address and phone number.

15) Breeder’s pedigrees offer names and colors, but breeder is also able to provide detailed information about the rats on the pedigree.
 
Very VERY helpful, thank you!

I do feel quite bad though, I bought Cotton and Lycra from the local pet shop...

I did check them out for weeks before even asking my parents for them, and there was always clean litter, full food bowl, full clean water bottle, bedding toys, shelters and large cages. Sadly I didnt think about where thoughs poor animals actually came from...

When I am allowed more rats I will think before buying... maybe contact a rat club for advce, though i dont think there is one where i live :'(
 
Rescue Rats

Rescue rats come in all ages, and colours.
Rescue rats may need homes because they are:

1) babies, socialized from birth, who were born as the result of an accidental pregnancy or pet store surprise pregnancy (someone unknowingly purchased a pregnant rat)
2) rats who have been found abandoned
3) rats who are being rehomed by people who can no longer care for them due to various factors such as illness
4) rats who are being rehomed by people who no longer want them
5) rats in shelters or rescues who may have been taken in from previously mentioned situations or may have been rescued from horrible situations of neglect or abuse. When you get a rat from a rescue or shelter, they should be able to provide you with some information about the rat, its behaviour, health and limited history.

A good Rescue will quarantine new rats for 4 weeks to ensure they are healthy.
They will get to know their rats before adopting them out to ensure they are well socialized and healthy.
They will:
a) screen adopters
b) have an adoption fee
c) make an effort to keep in touch with adopters
d) have an adoption contract
e) be willing to take back rats they adopt out
f) reclaim rats not being properly cared for
g) provide adopters with information about the rat's health, socialization, and history
h) not adopt out a rat by itself unless it is going to live with other rats

When you adopt a rescue rat, you are helping that rat.
You are not creating a demand that will cause more rats to be bred.
If you adopt from a shelter or a rescue, then you are making room so that another rat can be rescued.

Most Canadian rescue rats I have met were well socialized, loving ratties.
Any health problems were minor and easily dealt with ... such as mites.
Rescue rats that were not well socialized were either not adopted out until they were well socialized, or lived the remainder of their lives in rescue.
All rats may have health problems based on their genetic backgrounds.
Thus good care such as diet, housing, and vet care are essential to maximize their health and lifespan.

When you get rats, regardless of the source, a good quarantine is important if you have other rats.

Holly
 
This is what confuses me a bit. It says that pet stores should never be a source for a pet because the rats there come from mills and such. I understand the risk of disease as a big reason not to buy from a pet store but If you look at it from the rats point of view, wouldn't buying from a pet store be a form of rescue because in most pet stores those rats already have their fates decided and if someone comes along and saves them from that fate, the rat gets a chance to live a happy life.

I just don't think it's fair that the breeder rats should be the only ones to buy (excluding rescue shelters) while hundreds of others have to sit in a crowded cage waiting for a snake owner to come along.

I'm only saying this because my rats ben and quasar are the most wonderful guys i've owned and have such great personalities and they came from a pet store.
 
THe issue of pet store rats is not one of individual rats but of general supply and demand of the system as a whole. If people as a whole continue to purchase pet store rats, the pet stores continue to produce them in vast quantities, since there is a demand for them. If people as a whole cease to purchase these rats, the pet stores (in good business practice), stop producing them since they take a financial hit on them.

It's hard, I know. It requires that you sacrifice the rat in the cage now for the potential of reducing the harm to rats later.

In the end, it's up to each person to make a decision that is ethically and morally right for them. And in the end - if you see that fuzzy face that just speaks to you, what can you really do? Davros and Pi were rats I bought from a live feeder seller at a reptile expo. I created a demand for them but I couldn't help it - when they fell asleep in my palm, I was hooked by my heartstrings!

I think what people are generally trying to say is that if given the equal choice between a shelter/rescue rat and a pet store rat, the school of thought on the ratshack in general is that you should take the shelter rat. There is, overall, less harm done by this.
 
I just want to add something to rat.charmer's great response. It is right on the money when it comes to supply and demand.
Shelters and rescues exist because of support from rescue advocates. If you support them through donations or adopt from them and pay their adoption fees, then they are able to continue to help animals in need. It is never profit, they will always be in the red, those funds go directly into the pot to help future animals. If they don't get the funds needed to run the shelter or rescue, or not have people removing animals from their facilities through adoption, then they will close down and hundreds of animals will suffer for it long term. Or, they will have to resort to mass euthanization of the animals if they are a kill facility.
That is not the case with petstores. The money from the animals that they sell will either go to paying more mill breeders for more stock, or into the pocket of the owner who is benefiting from the suffering that they put those souls through. I compare that to giving a guy $20 for beating his dog at the side of the road. It is misery money - BLOOD money.
In addition to that, animals coming into shelters peak unbelievably when petstores move into the area. Petstores do not screen animal owners, they often lie about the animals care and needs to potential customers in order to move the stock out, and do not care if people intend on keeping those animals for any length of time. Eventually a large number of those animals are dumped at shelters, in the same area as the store, at an alarming rate. Petstores absolutely contribute to the increased number of animals in the shelters surrounding them. I have spoken with shelter workers and volunteers who cringed when they told me that they needed to get their numbers down because a big box petstore had recently opened and they were already getting much higher numbers of animals being surrendered to them.
I appreciate and sympathize with those people who buy animals in petstores because they are suffering and in misery, but it is a lose-lose-lose situation for animals all round, any way you cut it, and it isn't even remotely rescuing. You cannot even begin to consider it rescuing when your actions are only condemning more animals to the same fate in the petstore, and contributing to less animals leaving shelters alive. Who are you rescuing exactly when your actions cause suffering to more animals than they alleviate suffering for?
My advice is always to seek out and frequent stores for supplies that do not carry animals, especially feeder animals, even if it means that people are inconvenienced. If you don't go into those stores to begin with, then it is a lot easier to avoid contributing to that miserable cycle of suffering and death.
:blobfire: <---- for petstores that sell animals.
 
My first 3 rats came from a pet store and they were also wonderful.

Besides potential disease, the problem most people have with getting rats from pet stores is that you are supporting a horrible system and helping to create a demand that will just cause more rats to be bred.

That is one reason why so many of us are into rescue - rescue rats are in desperate need of good homes, may have come from a pet store or some other equally horrible environment, but when you help them other babies are not born to take their place.

Personally, I doubt buying a couple of rats from a pet store does much to increase the demand as it is already so high ... and it does help the rats you buy.
If people really didn't want to support this abusive system, they would not buy anything from pet stores - thanks to the internet, this is quite easy to do.
I don't buy rats from pet stores, reptile shows, etc. because I don't go into those places.
It breaks my heart just to drive by pet stores ....

If a person decides that they have to have a rat from a breeder, I certainly hope they do their research and only get one from a good ethical breeder ...

I guess for many of us, it isn't pet stores vs breeders
..... it is do we help a rescue rat or buy a pet store rattie.
 
Ditto on everything Vanessa and rat.charmer said. I also want to add that some people who have purchased sick animals from pet stores have gone after those stores and have been reimbursed for the cost of vet bills.

I think that would be a great way to discourage stores from selling animals - if everyone who purchased a sick animal claimed all the vet bills, the stores would lose all the money gained from the cost of the animal plus all the supplies for that animal (which is where they typically make all their profits).

Purchasing animals from pet stores, even if you feel you're rescuing that animal, is telling them it's okay to keep doing what they're doing. It's like buying products from companies that you know utilize sweatshops and using the justification that at least the people are getting paid something. It's false logic.
 
If live feeding would be made illegal, then we wouldnt have the issue of rats in pet stores :redhot: It pisses me off that any animal is good enough to be food for another creature, but worthless as anything else. Kept in lousy conditions, no love, care or respect given. Life is amazing and should be treated with a gentle hand.


Sorry, I just get completely bent. I have stood and watched rescues go on and on about cats and dogs, how wonderful they are. I love cats and dogs, I am owned by one of each. You ask them questions and then make the mistake of mentioning some of the wonderful people you know that rescue rats.These same warm and loving people turn cold and you get "ewwwws, they are pests, not worth rescuing". *sighs*

Im all about equal love and compassion for all creatures. Sorry I get side tracked easily with this kind of thing :eek:fftopic:

Go rescue......save a life and make yours 100% beter for having done a wonderful thing.
 
Alicemcmallis said:
Ditto on everything Vanessa and rat.charmer said. I also want to add that some people who have purchased sick animals from pet stores have gone after those stores and have been reimbursed for the cost of vet bills.

I think that would be a great way to discourage stores from selling animals - if everyone who purchased a sick animal claimed all the vet bills, the stores would lose all the money gained from the cost of the animal plus all the supplies for that animal (which is where they typically make all their profits).

Purchasing animals from pet stores, even if you feel you're rescuing that animal, is telling them it's okay to keep doing what they're doing. It's like buying products from companies that you know utilize sweatshops and using the justification that at least the people are getting paid something. It's false logic.


That is actually a really good idea.
I have to wonder though how many pet stores would try to get out of it by telling them, "Well if you had a defective product (the sick rat) you should have just returned it for another one instead of going to the vet?" Cause if you buy a defective product typically you return it and exchange it or get a refund. It's not usual for people to repair it and then demand the store pay them back though I have heard of a few isolated incidences of this.
 
"Well if you had a defective product (the sick rat) you should have just returned it for another one instead of going to the vet?"

That would almost always be the first thing a store will reply with - a lot of stores have it noted on your "receipt" that you have to return the pet to the store if it's ill. But if you harrass them enough (managers, head office, etc.), a lot of the time they will pay. I've known of quite a few people who did this and got reimbursed for hundreds of dollars. You just have to make a big enough fuss in front of enough people. ;)

Not that I'm endorsing people go to pet stores for the sole purpose of doing this, but if you happen to have gone to a pet store before realizing there are rescues out there and have a sick pet, go after the store!
 
anita1216 said:
Im all about equal love and compassion for all creatures.

That's exactally how I feel about all animals which is why I was so angry when my parents tried to get me to give my babies away to a pet store. I feel all life should be seen as equal, it doesn't matter if the animal/person is ugly or messy, it's still a living being that deserves to live a full life just as much as anyone else.
 
We have to remember the rats in petstores are not always for feeders, I have been witnessing a trend of more and more rats being marketed as pets. Mice are still snake food but that's not always true some store put a higher price to discourage pets as food. My first rats were from a petstore (a really lousy one I might add), I didn't rescue them. I bought them full out, I was ignorant and 12. I have never bought from a petstore ever again. I don't think anyone should stop buying at petstore just those who sell pets. I shop at the Pet Valu by me and Ryan's Quailtiy Pet foods.

And as a side note the Pet Valu that I used to live by in KW, no longer seems to sell small pets (the other day they had birds, fish and crickets)...and they also foster for Rabbit Rescue.
 
Good to hear that some stores are improving ...

Animals in pet stores come from mills, backyard breeders or are bred in the store ... ethical breeders do not sell to pet stores .... so regardless of what happens to animals sold in pet stores,
supporting pet stores = supporting their practices (cruelty to animals).

Stores selling only supplies for pets are not included in the above. These types of stores are generally refered to as pet food supply stores, etc. IMO , these stores certainly deserve our support. I'm just very happy that we have options other than pet stores.
 
sausage4ever said:
We have to remember the rats in petstores are not always for feeders, I have been witnessing a trend of more and more rats being marketed as pets. Mice are still snake food but that's not always true some store put a higher price to discourage pets as food. My first rats were from a petstore (a really lousy one I might add), I didn't rescue them. I bought them full out, I was ignorant and 12. I have never bought from a petstore ever again. I don't think anyone should stop buying at petstore just those who sell pets. I shop at the Pet Valu by me and Ryan's Quailtiy Pet foods.

And as a side note the Pet Valu that I used to live by in KW, no longer seems to sell small pets (the other day they had birds, fish and crickets)...and they also foster for Rabbit Rescue.

It can vary by store, but very often the pet stores selling "pets" are really just picking out the "pretty" rats from the litters of their feeders. I have seen pet stores do this. Actually, the pet store I worked at (for a very short time) did this. They raised their rats amongst their feeders, just like their feeders. Randomly bred, no selection except for productivity. The pretty babies were picked out and put on the floor to be sold for three or four times as much as pets. The "ugly" babies were sold as snake food.

True, not all stores are like this, but many of them still are. :(
 
I seen this myself... It was a pet store in Barrie ON. They had two tanks, one was fancy rats, the other was feeder rats. The difference? All the fancy rats were dumbos... the feeder rats were all barebacks and split caps, beautiful colours of beige, mink, blacks. Because of ear placement... these rats were doomed to suffer a horrible ordeal.
 
The store I bought Cindy, Caleb and Jordan from sold pet rats for $10 each. They also sold the exact same rats as feeders for $5 each ... they just didn't advertise it.
 
After reading through this thread I thought you guys may be interested in this.

There is a bill that I really want to be passed over here in NSW Australia - I know that you guys live so far away BUT I thought the ideas were great and that you may be able to send letters and emails to your own governments and have them know what you think and that it'd be good for your countries too! The more people who push for it the more interested they become.

ANYWAY the bill is the Animals (regulation of sale) bill
It calls for the end of pet stores selling mammals, the end of backyard breeding and breeding for profit. The end of impluse buying of animals and irresponsible breeding. The only places able to sell animals are Vet clinics (over here a lot of them rehome abandoned animals) shelters &registered breeders. No more puppy farms/mills. No more rodent mills!!
No more animal cruelty and suffering for profit and the over populated pet industry.

Go here to read more,if you want.

http://www.pawsforaction.com

http://www.leadtheway.org.au/

http://www.deathrowpets.net

http://www.saynotoanimalsinpetshops.com


I believe in this 100% and do heaps of flyer mail-box deliveries and put up posters and tell EVERYONE about it. I really want it to happen!

..Imagine a day when you won't have to dred the pet store "feeder bin" or retail staff trying to sell you a "lahoodle"
(this actually happened to me!) No ferrets being fed canned cat-food in glass boxes and being removed from their mothers too young for profit.No animals being sold to walk bys. No advertisements of "shih tzu X maltese X poodle" or "moodle" or "labracockadoodle do doodle" (and so on..) in newspapers.

Oh man..what a dream!
end rant.
 
That is really interesting legislation. A lot of times when you have animal protection bills, I find they try to do too much - e.g. stop cruelty, stop animal fighting, stop this that or the other thing etc etc etc. that because of a clause or two it can get snagged and then killed in readings. This bill sounds like it is very direct and to the point. I would be interesting to see the nuts and bolts of this legislation. Questions I have include:

a) What if you have an oopsie litter and need to rehome? The animal must be given away then and not sold?
b) Is 'selling' defined as money exchange for a profit or just money exchanged? I wonder how many people would try to get around that by saying the person isn't selling the animal but buying a bag of food (BONUS: free rat included!)
c) Is the legislation only being considered for cats and dogs right now?
d) What are the requirements to becoming a registered breeder? If it's just paying an annual fee and has nothing to do with quality practices....
 
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