Wondering if one rat can become a bully towards his brother

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J

Jack Sparrow

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
2,352
Location
On the Black Pearl in Ottawa Canada
Captain Jack Sparrow has been stressed out for quite some time now. That happened too in July until I found out that both Severus and Silas were being dominant to him. They were not really bad towards Jack but he spent most of his time in a hammock.

To help Jack, I used to give him little breaks from Severus and Silas. I closed the ferret nation cage to make two seperate cages and left it like that for 3 days, then the rats together for 3 days. That really made a difference for Jack and he was back to his normal behaviour.

Later on, I saw Silas chasing Jack around in the cage and bite him. This is not an ongoing problem for Silas but he does that from time to time. He is definitely a dominant rat.

I separated the boys for a whole week to give Jack a chance. He was on the top portion of the cage with Lupin and his brother Barbossa.

The boys have a lot of opportunities to be together when I take them out of the cage and they are always doing well on the table.

One morning, I discovered big chunk of Jack's hair all over the top portion of the cage. He was alone with Barbossa and Lupin so I know he didn't fight with Severus or Silas. I cleaned the mess and kept the cage closed. The next morning, same thing and even the wheel has fallen so there has been a lot of chasing going on.

Recently, Jack is even terrified of me. If I want to take him out and he is in his hammock, he screams in a total panick. Once he is out, I find that he is extremely nervous so I try to spend more time with him to show him I am not a threat to him.

I wonder if Barbossa is bullying his own brother even if they have spent their whole life together. I know that Lupin would not do anything as he is a very tiny boy. I remember seeing Barbossa chasing his father Voldemort around the cage and Voldemort had all kind of bites all over his body. Barbossa is also a dominant boy.

I was told that rats from the same litter may have to determine their dominance but that it never ends up with one being a bully to the others.

I am thinking about putting the dominant boys one the bottom part and keep the quiet ones (Jack and Lupin) on top. Maybe the dominant ones will solve the problems amongs themselves and that they will leave Jack alone when I reopen the big cage.

Opinion about that?
 
Rat mischiefs follow the same heirarchy and structure as wolf packs. Just as they will have an alpha animal in the group, they will also have an omega animal. Omegas are sometimes treated poorly by other group members and will definitely be picked on. How much they are picked on, and how severely, will depend on their personalities and that of the more dominant animals in the group.
This behaviour is not changed by blood relations amongst the group, siblings or parents will not lessen their dominance just because other members are blood relations to them. It more stems from the individual personalities of each member of the group and how they interact with other members.
I found the below information on Omega wolves that explains their role in the group...
'Omegas:
The Omega of the pack is lowest ranking wolf, only higher then the pups. The Omega is usually a wolf that is either very new to packlife and still learning or a wolf that has been lowered in rank due to wrong actions. They are usually given the responsibilities of 'puppy-sitter', watching over the cubs during group hunts and making sure they don't wander into the forest. The Omega may even growl or nip at the learning pups, teaching them the Way of the Pack and their place within the hierarchy. Ironically, other adult wolves may growl or nip at the Omega in the same manner for the same reasons. Still what seems to be 'bullying' is much more complicated than it appears. If a pack's survival depends on the acceptance of hierarchy, then it is crucial to learn this well and early.'

'The wolf pack hierarchy is a very strict social order.

* Leaders are known as Alpha (Male and Female).
The dominance is communicated by posture and vocally.
(A straight tail – bared teeth – deep growls).
This show of force rarely leads to serious injuries.
* The Lowest ranking wolf is known as an Omega (Male or Female).
The Omega wolf serves an important purpose by absorbing the packs
aggression thereby maintaining balance within the pack.'

Rat mischiefs are exactly the same and are very dynamic in their structure. Everyone has their place in the group and are treated accordingly. It is fascinating the different groups that I have observed over the years and the different ways that rats will interact with each other based on the way that they handle their different order in the group. There have been many groups that I have had that have been so laid back and friendly to each other that as an outsider you would never be able to tell who the alpha is, but there always is one. There are just some alphas that are very kind and gentle. Then there are other groups where the alpha rules very dominantly and you can tell who he is immediately with the way other rats will interact with him.
It is really very complicated and the different types of groups that you can encounter are never ending. It is not easy to give advice as to where he will be better incorporated. Even the most picked on rat might turn very dominant with another group because those in the other group might be less dominant. He can go from being the omega to trying to be the alpha in another group. It all depends on their individual personalities.
Keep trying him with different groups until there seems to be one that he is less picked on in, where he doesn't become the aggressor. You might consider changing other members in the group instead of him. It is so hard to say, you just have to try different rats together and see how it turns out. Maybe try to introduce them all into one group and see how that goes. Maybe the alpha needs neutering?
 
In my experience so far, animals don't have the same sense of family relations. Two boys, even though brothers, can start to fight. I've had this happen with two rats I took in. They were fine for a few months before fighting broke out and I drew the last straw when the victim received a very nasty gash. Why did they start? I don't know. Nothing had changed in the months they were with me.

I think what you may need to do if you plan on reintroducing them all.. is start from square one. Even having them apart for 3 - 5 days can make a huge difference. I once had 3 girls away from the others for only 4 days. When I got home and put them back together, they broke out into dominance fighting. Switching them around too much could also be causing stress. I'd start on neutral territory and watch them, and let them reorganize their dominance structure slowly before putting them into a cage. The cage really brings out any problems the rats may have with each other. Too much change can really throw things off.

I was told that rats from the same litter may have to determine their dominance but that it never ends up with one being a bully to the others.
Click to expand...

This is totally not true... It is dependent on personality, genetics, hormones, etc. If a rat is more aggressive, getting the term bully, they will not distinguish between brothers and other cage mates. I was typing this as Vanessa replied, and she wrote a very good summary of 'pack' behaviour. I think I'm repeating myself now, so I'll stop before I go in circles :p
 
Just as a footnote.
Even the most harmonious of groups might change over time and rats might need to be removed or switched around even after months, or years, of getting along with no problems. As the alpha gets older and more vulnerable, fighting can break out.
That is what happened with the sweetest alpha rat that I ever had - my Totem. He was so kind and gentle to everyone, even his brother Magic, who was the omega. As Totem aged, he became more aggressive towards everyone. He knew he was vulnerable to cagemates challenging him to replace him as alpha, so he went around every now and then and beat them up to remind them that he was boss. He had never done that when he was younger, only when he became a senior. It never became serious, he was never capable of real injury, but he did become much more assertive. That was just fascinating to witness.
Another situation that can cause serious problems is when the alpha passes away or has to be removed because of health reasons. Severe fighting can take place because the alpha position is up for grabs. That can be a really bad time and injury can occur.
It is just extremely complicated, and unless you know each rat intimately, it is difficult to give advice in this situation.
 
If the alpha feels like their station is being threatened (even if the omega is not doing any challenging) they will enforce their will on others to remind everyone of there they stand. If ONE of them is challenging the alpha to change their rank, they could all be feeling that wrath.
 
All the replies explains it so well. I totally agree with all of them.

What you were told in the past, is wrong. Even though they are blood related, they will still be dominant.
 
The good thing is they all get along well when they are not in the cage. I have Remus with them too and they don't bother him at all.

Right now, Jack is on the top part with Lupin alone and the others are in the bottom section. Jack seems happy with Lupin and is no longer hiding in the hammock. I am going to try him alone with Barbossa tomorrow and see what happens.

I would prefer Jack and Barbossa together as they are the same age and the other rats are much older. Lupin is not the healthiest boy and he is 18 months old now. I don't want Jack to be on his own when Lupin goes.

If Jack and Barbossa are fine together, I will leave them and have the other boys on the bottom portion. I am still going to have them play together often so I can rearrange my cage if some of them die and one cagemate is alone.
 
That's really good that they all play together. You could keep trying to put them together in the cage, if it doesn't work out, you separate again.
 
This morning I took some pictures of my ferret nation and I tried to pick Barbossa. He ran away from me terrified!! LOL!!!! Barbossa is usually dominant and strong and I just laughed seeing him so scared of me this morning.

I really think my Silas has a lot of common with the real Silas from Da Vinci Code except for the colour. :lol5: :lol5: :lol5:

I am going to try Barbossa alone with Jack today and see how things goes. If I find that Lupin is terrified by big boss Silas and Jack goes well with Barbossa, I might leave the 3 boys together in one half of the cage and try Remus with Silas so he won't be alone.

If that doesn't work, I could always rotate the boys so they have the opportunity to be in both parts of the cage with a different partner and they will all have a turn to be Silas's victim. :lol5:

Well, why would that work? Barbossa and Jack are both captains and they both want the Black Pearl. Jack is quite sneeky and always gets what he wants but in the end, Barbossa is quite stronger than him as we could see at the end of At World's End. (Lots of Ends, I know but I am not writing a book savvy?)

Silas has killed many people in the name of God. He is not really a bad person but he believes that he is doing the right thing. No wonder he doesn't want anybody aroung him. As I am The Teacher, Silas is always very docile with me and affectionate. I really love him.
:lovestruck: :lovestruck: :lovestruck:

Nobody seems to bother Lupin but who wants to mess up with a werewolf???
 
You need to find a comfortable situation for all your rats. You cannot switch them around every once in awhile as this will add to ALL their stresses. A "pack" needs to have established rankings and switching them all the time will have a lot of tense rats that have to keep reasserting themselves over and over and it could easily lead to bloodshed.

I just split up a cage of rats and put the more dominant bullying types together and the more passive gentle ones in another cage. I felt sad because I was taking rats away from each other that had lived their entire lives but I am now very very glad I did. the 2 groups are much more relaxed and happier then they were before. :) Things changed in the dynamics and was getting out of control so I changed them up.

Age does not mean a thing to a rat, and if you find a pair that are happy together let them stay together. Deal with the Now rather than a possibility that Lupin will die sooner...you just never know sometimes :)

I have girls that are 28 months, 24 months and 14 months living together and their personalities mesh beautifully.
 
Things continue to go well with my boys. Jack and Barbossa are together and no fighting at all anymore. Silas and little tiny Lupin are together. I often find them in the same hammock and I think Lupin (hairless)appreciates that big boy Silas to warm him.

At the moment, I cannot put all the boys together again because of the new trays I have. But Nath told me we could cut a hole on the top tray and flip a flap open so the rats could have access to the whole cage again. I might do that eventually.

The rats go along well on the table too right now. I remember a time when Silas was being dominant to Jack even on the table but not anymore.

I'm glad that things go well now as before.
 
It's really great that they are getting along now. I'm sure them seeing each other during out time is good enough.
How are you liking the big coroplast tray? Do you find it much easier?
 
It's great. My cage doesn't stink anymore. I didn't have to do a big clean up yet and I think I should be good to do this every second week rather than every week. So I don't know how well it is going to go when I clean it. I will do it this weekend.

After 2 weeks, it is just beginning to smell a bit. The hammocks are completely dry now. I wonder if they didn't use the hammocks to pee sometimes as they realized that peeing in the floor would end up with a wet floor.

They seem to be using the litter tray more now with that cage and they stopped spilling it all over the cage.

When I pick up my rats, they smell good as before, they were really stinky.

There is a lot less issue with respiratory problems now as this is a lot more cleaner than before.
 

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