Weight Comparisons of my Next Generation with the Horde

[lilspaz68]

I am quite unhappy with the weights of the majority of my Horde these days. It worries me that I am doing something wrong currently. I used to feed them Suebee’s freely since I didn’t have access to lab blocks at the time, and then I used to feed both. I didn’t quite understand that Suebee’s was not to be fed daily but as tri-weekly addition to the dog kibble

Now my rats are fed strictly lab blocks (Mazuri previously, now HT 2104 for the last 6 months..thank you Elizabeth!) supplemented with veggies and occasional fruit, with “bad” treats like peanuts in the shell handed out one by one.

I used Aura and Valora and Vesta as my comparison rats from the Horde of Old as they were normal-sized rats and very lean when I got them as babies. I had to use Dilbert as my comparison to my neutered boys.

Sadly Word doesn't translate well on here and it will be hard to read. I did put the difference in weights in blue for all to see... :roll:

Age / Name / Wt. / Old Horde Rat / Wt. at Same Age / Difference between Current and Old

15 / Kismet / 362 g / Valora/Vesta / 400 g/448 g / 38 g/86 g
15 / Tosca / 304 g / same / same / 96 g/144 g
15 / Cleo / 328 g / same / same / 72 g/120 g
16 / Megan / 318 g / same / 402 g/456 g / 84 g/138 g
16 / Angel / 335 g / same / same / 67 g/121 g
18+ / Faline / 417 g / Aura / 427 g / 10 g
6 / Suri / 343 g / Valora/Vesta / 327 g/346 g / -16 g/3 g
6 / Linny / 295 g / same / same / 32 g/51 g
20 / Bronwen / 395 g / Aura / 432 / 37 g
16 / Tucker(n) / 562 g / Dilbert / 530 g / -32 g
16 / Bear(n) / 481 g / same / same / 49 g
13 / Fayth / 366 g / Valora/Vesta / 411 g/412 g / 45 g/46 g
8 / Aki / 375 g / Valora/Vesta / 357 g/379 g / -18 g/4 g
8 / Lani / 353 g / same / same / 4 g/26 g

Things to remember. Suri is a big solid girl, Aki and Lani came to me at 5 months old so I didn’t feed them from the beginning, Faline came to me at 6 months old, Bronwen is a sweet chunky monkey who had at least one litter, and I have no idea why my neutered boys are following in each other’s footsteps :roll:

Does it look like I am on the right track for healthier weights?

 

[jorats]

First of all, you shouldn't compare your rats, as you know, each rat is unique and you can pretty much feel if they are fat or just big.

My Mielle is about 280 but yet her cagemate Loki is 305 while Flea is 360. But they are all very healthy and perfect weight for each one of them.

One thing I've noticed with my blocks, I do have to limit the HT because my rats would gorge themselves if they could. They so love that food.
I do give unlimited Oxbow, it's not a favourite so I know when they eat it, it's pretty much because they are hungry.

Being in your situation, you are doing everything right. Since you don't have a food like Oxbow to supplement, then you really have to continue the free fed HT. HT is low fat and low protein so that's a great thing even if they are over eating it. Another thing you could do is give TONS of veggies. This will make the rats wait for their veggies and so not over do it on the HT, especially if it's their favourites. Mine love broccoli, kale, romaine, spring mix.

 

[lilspaz68]

The Horde are overweight for the most part, but since they are aged 18 months to 24 months I am not too worried about dieting them. I was just concerned that I was still continuing the problem and my next leaner generation would end up as chubby.

Oh I know how each rat can be very different, Asha is a bigger girl now, and Adia stayed tiny. They both started tiny.

I used to feed the Horde the HT2014 and look for weight loss every month, but no...they kept gaining :roll:

So I decided to look at the differences in the 2 generations.

 

[jorats]

Oh I see...

But if your new horde become chubbier when reaching 20+ months, then I would say that's quite ok.

 

[LA]

I might be reading the chart wrong but it doesn't look like a huge difference. The new horde in the girls looks like most of them are smaller then the old.

I agree with Jo about comparison. I mean Lily is a big girl compared to Ruby and Hazel. And she's 6 months younger. I posted the weights but Lily compared to Ruby is about 50g difference. And even in littermates, Hazel is bigger than Ruby so I can't really compare those two either.

 

[lilspaz68]

I know all about individual rat's being different shapes and sizes, don't worry. Selene was a big boned girl like her sister and looked fine at 600+ grams, whereas Sebastian was tiny and only weighed 450 grams at his heaviest.

Well lets see...my control rats now...

Aura is now 467 grams which is fine
Valora is 416 grams
Vesta is 490 grams

and Dilbert is 562 grams whereas he should be much smaller

The others I am worried about are;

Kyrie at 22 months is 606 grams and is fat
Terra at 19 months is 547 grams
Lucine at 19 months is 508 grams

They grew big very young whereas this new generation fed a bit more responsibly are growing more slowly and they are leaner and more active overall. I needed to put it down for myself side by side. You can see there's an overall difference in weights and I used my "normal" rats from the Horde.

For comparison;

At 15 months Kyrie was 497 grams
at 12 months Terra was 504 grams
and Lucine at 12 months was 407 grams. She cannot see and she used to run into things while bounding around, so I understand her issue, she walks everywhere rather than running into things like she used to.

 

[lilspaz68]

I thought it was interesting so I posted it, but I guess its just confusing people.

Should I remove this post?

 

[Riana]

This really brought to mind a question I've been meaning to ask: How many HT blocks should a rat be eating? Can anyone give me an approximate amount to start out with, and see from there? Right now the boys are on oxbow free-fed, and the living world extrusion blocks until the HT comes in. I usually give enough for about 4 blocks each rat twice a day... I'm thinking that's too much. Can anyone suggest anything?

 

[LA]

OK I see now. You are worried about the older Horde as opposed to the younger. I see now.

 

[user 78]

This is great, Shelagh! It's always great to see that your Master Plans are indeed working out. I'm so very glad to see the New Generation is doing so well!

For everyone else : You need to keep in mind that the weight differences are directly corresponding to the way Shelagh had been feeding. The Horde was free fed Suebee's and kibble and then Suebee's and blocks. They gained weights at accelerated rates due to their diets. Shelagh, in an attempt to keep from having Fat Rats, which we all know is a bad thing, has changed her feeding practices in order to maintain more healthy weights on the younger generation now in her home. The weight differences are drastic in comparison with The Horde and the New Gen. This is a *very* good thing. This means that Shelagh's attempts at a better, healthier Horde in the New Generation is working out.

She has posted what a good diet, proper care, and most fabulous playtimes can do for a rat's health.

 

[LA]

OK yeah I did read it the wrong way in the beginning. But now it totally makes sense. I thought you were worried about the new Horde.

 

[Godmother]

This is an interesting thread. I would love to know what sort of rate of weight gain is healthy when rats are young. I have fostered young rats, trying very hard to do the right thing and hoping that they turn out OK.

Mine love the HT blocks but don't overeat them. They just stash them in their nest boxes. They don't eat Oxbow unless they are truly desperate! They will eat treats like Cheerios to excess, but will eventually stash even the best of treats.

Riana, I have heard that a rough guide is giving 2-3 blocks per day to an adult rat. Trouble is that lab blocks vary widely in size! Anyone else have some good suggestions?

 

[Riana]

Thanks, Wendy! The boys would gobble them up, so they were always out, but it didn't seem as though they were starving. So now I'll know what to base it off of.

 

[LA]

They will eat treats like Cheerios to excess, but will eventually stash even the best of treats.

Mine will even stash yogies.

 

[Godmother]

Riana, one thing to keep in mind is that yours (at least two of them) are not yet adults. They probably have higher metabolisms and might very well need to eat more. Even your older guys are not very old. And they all spend a lot of time out of their cage running around, so they'd need more than a sedentary rat.

The only rat I ever knew who really overate lab blocks (even Oxbow) was SQ's Hannah. Hannah got very overweight; she died of PT, and I think that the tumour had affected the part of her brain that signals satiation. Her shape was just like that of the rats shown in intro Psychology textbooks to illustrate what happens to animals who have a lesion in a part of the thalamus.

Otherwise I don't think that there's a need to worry about rats overeating lab blocks.

 

[Fidget]

it's not all about weight, it's weight balanced to the body size too. You can keep a child small by malnourishing them, doesn't mean they can't still be too fat or skinny for their size. And muscle weighs more than fat.
You stunt a kid's overall growth by inadequate feeding and he could seem well-proportioned - for a small guy.
Shouldn't we be more concerned with proportion than weight?

 

[user 78]

You're missing the point of the entire post.

The idea isn't that 'Oh, they weigh 144g less than the Horde!' because of malnutrition or any such thing. If you look at the rats she used in the comparison, body wise they are similar to their New Generation counterparts. Shelagh simply is excited that her new generation of rats are maintaining a healthy weight with her new feeding plan. She compared them to The Horde because they are older and were given a bad feeding plan when they were in their developmental stages. She's happy to see that her plan is working and that this new generation may not have the same problems she's currently having with the Horde. Older, overweight rats. It may even help with any health issues as they grow older.

She's happy her rats are well fed and healthy. How is this a bad thing?

 

[lilspaz68]

I free-feed blocks so I am not restricting them there. I was just hoping to have healthier rats overall. The Horde grew big really really fast, making some of them overweight adults, and I was just concerned that my current feeding regime would leave me with the next younger generation in the same situation. I did the weight comparisons (at the same age and similar body type) because I needed to see in black and white if I was right and the current generation are carrying healthier weights for their size. I always did grow 'em big but fat is not what I want...I want my babies to be with me for a long healthy time Because I screwed up in the beginning I may have compromised my beloved Horde's future health and length of life.

I am very aware of body types and realize that each rat is different, consider this averages rather than individual rats.

When I see rolls on some of my rats I know that I did something wrong.

 

[jorats]

Currently my Boo and Treat are huge. I'm not ready to call them fat though. Everyone else in that cage are very slim and slender, so I'm thinking they are just big rats, not fat rats but I'm keeping a close eye on them.

 

[lilspaz68]

Currently my Boo and Treat are huge. I'm not ready to call them fat though. Everyone else in that cage are very slim and slender, so I'm thinking they are just big rats, not fat rats but I'm keeping a close eye on them.

Linny is tiny and delicate (and still licky) but Suri is a much bigger longer girl. I think its just these rats, I wonder what daddy was like?