[VIDEO PROOF] MASTI with Congestive Heart Failure

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mrintech

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2012
Messages
50
Location
India
Hello Everyone

I know I may be bit annoying to some of you, as there's NO proper VET available in my city, but this time I have got some videos for you all. I immensely request you to please help me:

* Yesterday only, the condition of MASTI MOUSE was like this (The Video is of Late DON MOUSE): https://www.dropbox.com/s/50k8onbycyjrc ... -41-41.mp4

* Today, this is the condition of MASTI MOUSE: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rryxqi3r18zy ... .45.58.mp4

He's a Male white rat and his age is 2 and a half years - Born on ?? September 2010

Yesterday, he was at the brink of natural death (I can assure you this, believe me). I called many people for EUTHANASIA, but NO ONE was ready to do so! They again started suggesting me random medicines as usual.

I don't know WHY? But I gave him ENALAPRIL (0.4 ml of 2.5 mg tablet) twice (10 to 12 hours GAP)

He showed some improvement and was quite stable yesterday.

Today, I again give him ENALAPRIL and you can see the improvements in the video posted above. He's roaming here and there and DEMANDING FOOD, like he did before the illness.

I am not sure, but I seriously don't think he's having any respiratory problem. He was on CIRPO and DOXY for more than 2 weeks, but he didn't show any improvements. His conditions was getting worse and worse everyday.

Right now, he's having following troubles:

1. Minor Labored Breathing (as you can see in the above video)

2. As soon as he eat some food, I think he experience PAIN. He lies horizontally on the ground and starts breathing heavily for 10-15 minutes. Then he cleans himself and goes to sleep with his EYES wide open

3. I think the disease has damaged one of his eyes. You can see a WHITE FILM / LAYER in the Video too. Yesterday, the same eye was VERY VERY white, but after giving him ENALAPRIL, that VERY WHITE Layer went away.

4. He tires very quickly and breathes funny, just like we start breathing after playing some outdoor game.

5. He occasionally grinds his teeth very hard for 2-3 minutes


Can you please suggest me what I have to do next? I am not even touching ATENOLOL and DIGOXIN, as I seriously don't know what these medicines does PRACTICALLY?!

If you need more information, please ask me.

Thanks

~ Mrinmay, India
 
I believe if the enalapril is working, you should also be adding lasix to help draw out fluids. This should really help your little guy.
I would still keep him on doxy but change the cipro for enrofloxacin.

You are definitely not being annoying, you are a caring rat parent. And we have plenty of those here.
I don't have any experience with heart issues so hopefully somebody with more experience will come reply.
 
Did your vet suggest digoxin or other heart meds? If he's responding well to the enalapril, that's wonderful, but does suggest he has heart issues. If the enalapril with lasix and antibiotics works well for him, stick with that. However, if he relapses, you may wish to speak to your vet about the other medicines that may have to be added/changed.

I'm glad your little fellow is showing improvement. Heart conditions can cause respiratory distress when there isn't enough oxygen circulating in the blood to other organs, including the lungs.
 
Thanks everyone for your replies :)

I just shot this small video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ki1zos7u2d95f ... .33.44.mp4

ENALAPRIL has give him some comfort, but his Labored Breathing just don't go away. :(

jorats said:
I believe if the enalapril is working, you should also be adding lasix to help draw out fluids. This should really help your little guy.

Can you please suggest me What dosage of LASIX I have to give with ENALAPRIL?

Currently, I am giving him 0.4 ml of 2.5 mg Tablet mixed in 5 ml of water (around 0.2 to 0.25 mg of ENALAPRIL)

RAT Guide has mentioned following:

While using a diuretic (e.g.Lasix), and/or another vasodilator, in conjunction with enalapril can be helpful in heart failure do so with caution due to the potential for increased effect of hypotension.

http://ratguide.com/meds/cardiovascular ... aleate.php

Kindly help

Thanks :)

jorats said:
I would still keep him on doxy but change the cipro for enrofloxacin.

Can you please tell me the dosages? I don't have any idea how these drugs reacts with Lasix and Enalapril

Enrofloxacin is not available here. But, I will try to order it online.

Thanks :)

Carol Weekes said:
Did your vet suggest digoxin or other heart meds? If he's responding well to the enalapril, that's wonderful, but does suggest he has heart issues. If the enalapril with lasix and antibiotics works well for him, stick with that. However, if he relapses, you may wish to speak to your vet about the other medicines that may have to be added/changed.

I'm glad your little fellow is showing improvement. Heart conditions can cause respiratory distress when there isn't enough oxygen circulating in the blood to other organs, including the lungs.

There are NO EXOTIC vets available in my city :( Long story..............

I have to do everything myself with guidance from wonderful people like you all :)

Thanks :)
 
Hi mrintech.

I have had a lot of rats with heart disease, and presently have one boy (Tommy) with an enlarged heart.

How much does Masti weigh?
The dosage needed is based upon his weight.

To discover if a rat has a heart problem, you test dose with enalapril (0.25 mg/Ib twice a day) as you did. Or with benazepril (0.3 mg/Ib, twice a day).
Enalapril and benazepril are ACE inhibitors and lower the blood pressure. According to the Rat Health Care book, you may need to double the amount given as the disease progresses.
When enalapril (or benazepril) helps, you keep the rat on it, and you add atenolol (1 mg/Ib, twice a day). Atenolol is a beta blocker that slows the heart so it is more effective. The dose may need to be doubled as the disease progresses.

Lasix (furosemide) is a diuretic used to remove fluid from the lungs so they can breath. The starting dose is 1 to 2 mg/Ib, given twice a day. This can be increased to three or four times a day and the dose can be increased as well.

Digoxin (0.0025 mg/Ib, twice a day) is added to the other heart meds ONLY if the rat has an enlarged heart. The way to find out if the heart is enlarged is by an x-ray of your rat's chest. The digoxin helps the heart beat more strongly. Overdose causes a lack of appetite. "Activity and toxicity is enhanced by tetracyclines, macrolides."
The Rat Health Care book says the above dose can be increased but my vet is extremely cautious about increasing the dose amount of digoxin.

Right now my Tommy is getting 2 mg/Ib of lasix three times a day, in addition to his other heart meds.

The balance between giving enough lasix and not letting them become dehydrated is difficult to maintain as it changes.
It is important to have the equipment to give sub-Q fluids and to know how to do it. A dehydrated rat will stop drinking and eating, become non-responsive, and die if not re-hydrated.
I was told by a vet in Halifax that it is ok to give up to 6 ml of sub-Q fluids at a time. You can give sub-Q fluids several times a day as needed.
For info on giving sub-Q fluids see viewtopic.php?f=26&t=6235
You check for dehydration by pulling up the skin on the back of the neck and letting go. If the skin quickly snaps back, the rat is fine. Otherwise the rat is dehydrated and needs fluid.

* Note: information is from personal experience and from the Rat Health Care book. I am not a vet or a vet tech.

Unfortunately this is info you also need to know. No matter how well the heart meds help, they do not stop the progression of the disease. Eventually you will need to have Masti put to sleep in a humane way in order to prevent horrible suffering.
Please see: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9582
 
In my experience, it is ok to have rats on heart meds and
when needed, also on antibiotics such as enrofloxacin (baytril), doxy, and azithromycin.

Sometimes after eating, my rats with heart problems will need to lie down and their breathing issues get worse for a short time as they digest their food. It is my understanding that this is because digesting food diverts more of the blood supply to the stomach. Eating can also be stressful at times as it may not be easy to eat and breath at the same time.

I don't know what is going on with his eye.

In addition to their diet of lab blocks and daily vegs. I also feed lab blocks made into mush by soaking the blocks in cool water.
My rats also enjoy organic soy infant formula thickened with baby cereal (the kind that says add milk).
Both of these will help to keep Masti hydrated.

My vet is willing to consult with other vets if you have a vet that would like that.
 
Hi SQ

Thanks a lot for your detailed reply :)

Please help me with following questions:

1. Can you please tell me, all ratties with CHF have labored breathing? This is the video I just shot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtoe4gju02la4 ... .40.11.mp4 - Whatever he does, he keeps lying like this 24 Hours.

Does this goes away with proper medicines like Atenolol or Digoxin? or LASIX (maybe) ? or Dexamethasone ?

In the above video you can also hear his teeth grinding.

2. Do you give all the heart medicines and Lasix at once? or do you maintain difference of some hours between each medicine?

Currently he's drinking water/milk and eating food normally. But, I will keep checking for dehydration.

Thanks again :)
 
1. Can you please tell me, all ratties with CHF have laboured breathing? This is the video I just shot: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtoe4gju02la4 ... .40.11.mp4 - Whatever he does, he keeps lying like this 24 Hours.
Does this goes away with proper medicines like Atenolol or Digoxin? or LASIX (maybe) ? or Dexamethasone ?
In the above video you can also hear his teeth grinding.

The first symptom of a heart problem that I notice is a breathing problem that does not respond to the various combos of antibiotics. So yes, once the heart disease reaches a certain point, all rats develop laboured breathing.
I have found that the meds reduce the laboured breathing but it doesn't completely go away. As the heart disease progresses, more meds are needed to minimize the breathing problems.

When you hold him up to your ear and listen to both sides of his chest, does he sound congested? If he does, he may have fluid accumulating in his chest and would need lasix.
I can't hear it in the video, but rats grind their teeth when they are happy and when they are unhappy/feeling unwell.

I believe that lilspaz68 uses dex to reduce inflamation. My experience with dex is limited so you should ask her about it.
It sounds like he needs enalapril (or benezapril) and atenolol. You would also give lasix as needed to keep his lungs from filling with fluid ... but as previously mentioned this can cause dehydration so make sure you can give sub-Q fluids if needed.

Digoxin is only given if the heart is enlarged. Many types of heart problems do not cause an enlarged heart and early in CHF, the heart is not enlarged. Once the heart is enlarged, digoxin is an extremely important med to give.
If you have an x-ray done of his chest, your vet could probably get my vet to view it over the internet .... my vet is very experienced at being able to tell if a rat's heart is enlarged.

2. Do you give all the heart medicines and Lasix at once? or do you maintain difference of some hours between each medicine?
I give all the meds at the same time twice a day.
I may give the lasix at different times if I am spacing it out every 8 or 6 hours, ie 3 or 4 times a day instead of twice a day.

How much does Masti weigh?
Hope info this helps and Masti is soon feeling much better.
 
HI SQ

Thanks a lot for your response :)

I have an Analogue Weight Machine and it's showing approx 430 grams. I am trying to find a small digital weighing machine.

I have given him Atenolol and Enalapril as per above weight (little less than the dosage per lb)

I don't hear any congested / coughing sound from his chest. All I can hear is his heart beating rapidly.

From past 3 days (after starting Enalapril), he didn't have any Panic / Respiratory Attacks and following are his current symptoms:

1. As seen in the last video, he keeps on sitting / lying like that.
2. His labored breathing is still present
3. Just after eating something, he feels uneasy for 10-15 minutes.
4. He has made CHOTU (the other RAT) his pillow. He props up his head on him to breathe easier
5. He wants to eat food, but avoids water. But, I have mixed the water with small amount of milk, so he drinks it.
6. He sleeps / rests with his EYES WIDE open. :thud:

As of now, I don't see:

Any Blue or Purple Color on his feet, tail and ears. They are still somewhat pink (have turned little bit white)


Regarding Vets:

Till now, I have called 5 different VETS (not exotic; cats and dogs one) and they keep on reciting Betnesol (Betamethasone) on phone. No one is interested in checking MASTI. On phone, I even told them DOXY, CIPRO and DEX, but again they tell me to give Betamethasone :redhot:

Regarding EUTHANASIA:

One of the VETS told me, that he will give HIGH DOSAGE of Anaesthesia via injection, so he will pass in his sleep without any PAIN. I asked him about GAS, but he says WHAT GAS? He also said, NATURAL Death is the best death.

Overall, me and my ratties are doomed because of these awesome people :sad3: :sad3: :sad3:
 
:(
Sorry that you can not find a good vet.
My vet is a cat and dog etc vet but has learned a great deal about rats over the last 8 years.
The gas used to pts is the same gas used to put pets under for surgery. That way they do not feel the injection, etc

Personally, I would give good lab blocks soaked in cool water (if you have them).
I would also feed organic soy infant formula as it is the closest thing to a rat mama's milk.
Regular milk isn't that great for them.
 
The fat content in that food is extremely high. I would give him lots of vegetables to try and offset the fat percentage. But if that's all you have, then you'll need to stick with it.
Is there a food for hamsters there? That might be better, I believe the fat content for hamsters must be low.
 
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