URGENT treatment/doses on pneumonia

[jda6rats]

currently dealing with pneumonia and getting the meds switched from baytril TMP to Baytril - zithro involved stalking a different vet that has seen my rats - dose still I think are all too low

Molly was 500g last week - I imagine she is now closer to 400mg
Only symptom was puffy fur and not as active as usual - I immediately started Amox -
next day Thurs I added baytril / Doxy
By Friday she was a limp rat - no eating /drinking
Xrays taken week ago sat w/ only vet I could find to see her
showed consolidation DX Pneumonia vet changed to Baytril / TMP combo after a week on that
no improvement ( she looked better mid week weds/ thurs morning then downhill again )

RXed baytril 50mg/ML solution give 0.1 ml BID
Zithromax was started last night @ midnight - so less than 24hrs
100mg/ 5 ML solution dose 0.5 SID
Doxy we make so dose is correct at 5mg/kg


Neubilzing Albuterol ( 2.5mg/ 3 ML vials ) 0.5mg in 6 ML saline BID and plain sterile saline BID so 4 times a day




Syringing as much fluids ( pedialye) and critical care Omnivore by Emerald paste as she can take
my husband has been doing this every 3 hours- takes about an hour each time .
Should I ask for what and what doses ?
is Theopyline an option with baytril and Albuterol ?


She doesn't have a UTI hx maybe treated one 6 week course a yr ago or so - she is 22 months so not old- Ive been getting rats to 4 yrs plus the last year or two .

But everyone who comes down w/ a acute resp we loose quite quickly and it feels like its always because the vets are so slow to dose high end - or change meds quickly enough .

Any advice is welcome . It tears me up to see them suffer so -
But I know that they can turn around if properly treated .
I've had wonderous success treating PT ( getting 9-22 mths w treatment )
BUT no success w/ fast developing resp issues
I do treat Baytril /Doxy for life on all the rats that are two and older - or anyone who has a recurrenting URI - this one was out of the blue - Fine then NOT fine - deaths door. which is what we are dealing with here .

Thanks M & J parents to
Molly, Dobs, Harper, Leia ( our 4 plus yr olds ) Twins 14 mths Wiggles and Teirra
3 cattle dogs and one Carolina dog

Passed over Sophie Heart rat - Melba , Junebug , Banjo, Lola, Bear, and Gigi
Chelsea - cattle dog Cherokee GS

 

[jda6rats]

I know the Zithromax is supposed to be Twice daily which we have done-
But there are two vastly different doses posted on the different websites so Unsure what the
actaul dose is - I see these listed

 

[jda6rats]

P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } [FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]sorry IT will NOT LET ME PATSE the doses
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]I HAVE BAY[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]TRIL 5-15mg/kg BID
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]doxy 2.5mg-5 mg/kg
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]Zithro[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]max [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]8.8-17.6 mg/kg ot 4-[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]8 mg/lb BID
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif] other sites say 10[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]mg/lB
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]here [FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]I've [/FONT] read the above doses and this one 1[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]0-15mg/ LB
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]what is the best chance and we would [FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]be needing a different concentration to give her
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif] 10-15mg / LB
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]what [FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]concentration and dose should I try and get for her ? and do you all just let them pass at home if it doesn[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]'t work . when do we call in the towel and weigh her suffering against trying to save her.
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[FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, Sans-serif, sans-serif]Thoughts/ Advice
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[dspch911]

You might want to consider SQ fluids instead of the syringe. With the forcing of fluids you need to be really careful that they don't choke and get aspiration pneumonia. Pull the neck skin up, as along as it doesn't stay up your doing alright on fluids. Hope your rattie(s) get better soon. I find that albuteral treatments make my lung boys worse, but you need to determine if its working for your babies.

 

[lilspaz68]

I saw your other post with the doses you are giving.

For the 20 mg/ml zithro, my vet doses at 10 mg/kg BID, or 20 mg/kg SID (usually just once), so .5 ml once a day is correct.

I dose at 10 mg/kg for baytril and for your girl .1 twice a day is correct.

You never mentioned what mg/ml your doxy is so I cannot doublecheck that one.

How is she acting now? Is she cold, are her lungs congested or constricted (not able to get air in from tightness rather than just being full of fluid).

Its a really good combo for persistent URI's and I have even brought rats back from pneumonia with it. Wait a good 4 days for any signs of improvement. Keep her hydrated. You can make a homemade oral rehydration solution rats seem to like and take readily from salt, sugar and water. I'll dig up the basic recipe if you want it.

 

[jda6rats]

Hello-
the doxy dose is the one from Deb D's book- with the pills bought from Jedds'
don't have the book here with me. but its the dose see describes making the 0.1ml dose given BID

She is cold so we are keeping the temp up . and have her in the old rats cage- as they will stay put beside her. Her cage mates were leaving her alone- plus they have a one level cage set up verses 4 levels n her reg cage .
We had xrays done - she said consolidated and showed me the Xray - explained what I was looking at-
only 1/4 of her lungs were clear - then ( 8 days ago) she didn't see fluid in her lungs- just a small gas bubble - otherwise normal - no enlarged heart - just severe pneumonia

We will stop the albuterol, if you feel that doesn't help w/ pneumonia

Zithromax baytril combo - we will know in 3-4 days correct

Is theoplyine helpful ?
and can that be used w/ Baytril ? seen conflicting on this
J

 

[jda6rats]

Recipe would be great - she doesnt like the pedilye thats for sure

I am hestitant to give sub Q risk/benefit . But I do have it
she doesnt seem to be deyrating and is peeing . though I have to wipe her down as she isnt moving sometimes

 

[lilspaz68]

Homemade rehydrating formula: 10 oz warm water, 1 tsp sugar, 1/3 tsp salt. Mix well, refrigerate extra, warm up to feed.

 

[AboutPetRats]

I have had success with nebulization as well as with bathrooms steamed up from hot water in shower.

There are lots of variables with nebulization....many different ways to do it. What's worked best for my rats is to have them in the bathroom on my shoulder or in my arms while I steam it up with a hot shower for about 10 minutes. After the bathroom mirror is fogged up, I turn off the hot shower and stay in the bathroom with my rat(s) for the rest of the 10 minute period. (I use my cell phone as a timer and place it inside a drawer so it doesn't get steamed up, too!) The steamy bathroom helps open up their air passages so they can take in the nebulization treatment even better.

After the steamy bathroom treatment, I allow the rat to be in their cage while I get a small carrier pre-misted with my nebulizer. To do this, I place a large towel over a very small carrier. (I have one that's a little bigger than a loaf of bread.) I first mist the inside of the carrier without my rat(s) in it for 5-8 minutes. (I have a Schuco S5000 nebulizer.) Then I place my rat(s) inside the carrier (that's been pre-misted) for 5-8 minutes. While they're inside I feed them healthy treats so they are less stressed out. (Examples of the healthy treats I feed are frozen peas that have been heated up, giving them one pea at a time; dried edamame or soy or garbanzo beans---again one at a time.)

This is the mixture of medications I've found successful for nebulizing. I place the following into the nebulizer cup and have this all set to go before I begin the steamy shower treatment:

Gentamicin 0.25 ml
Albuterol 0.25 ml
Saline 3.5 mls

I have definitely seen significant improvement when doing the steamy bathroom followed by the nebulization. For my rats, sometimes just the steamy bathroom helps enough. But if the symptoms are severe, I add the nebulization. I only do these treatments when my rats' veterinarian recommends it. Usually my vet will say (if my rat is very sick) to go ahead and try it and see if it helps. Not every rat will respond....so it's usually worth a try. Obviously, if the rat seems worse at anytime during the treatment, I immediately stop.

Is your rat still hanging in there? I sure hope so! Sending lots of positive and healing wishes.

 

[jda6rats]

Just reading the past advice given on my current sick rats sister - Molly - and saw I did not update- Which is not helpful for others looking here for advice.

Sadly Molly passed within a few days of that post - My husband had been sleeping in the rat room for that last week to care for her . She was so so cold most of the last few days that she spent much of her last days under a sweater on top of him . She passed in the middle of the night with him . Not from Gasping attack though I thought I recalled her having some open mouth breathing . When I awoke that morning my husband had left a note saying how sorry he was but that we had lost Molly during the night . Makes me so grateful I have a partner who has cared so much for our pets- With not only his pocketbook - but with real actions . When our pets get really sick - I am not that great at the doing stuff- I can get all the research , vet appts , consultations and info together but when they are critical I get like a deer in the headlines and can't think or do .

Molly died from just having no more energy left to fight - I believe that she likely had both lung and heart involvement - but without treating the heart disease soon enough - she didn't have a chance-

She didn't die in panic. which I feel blessed about - But I do so much hate having to do all the palutative care to try and save them, Towards the end it always feel like we are torturing them with all the meds, fluids , force feeding ect -

We have learned from each of our little ones - Some died in ways that could have been helped with the right vet assistance - Our first one Nika - Was completely a vet failure- It was a simple ( our first exp with ) myco infection - and he DXed the doxy I believe at 1/100th of the correct dose- so basically she had no chance and died terribly . age 8 months

Second one Junebug we had help - but the meds were not right combo and doses were given for way too short a time - leading to scarring of the lungs and another horrible death . age almost 3 yrs

Our third ( my Heart Rat ) Sophie ended up with the worst genes ever - had 15 tumors over her close to 4 yrs - 11 taken out - over 4 surgeries ( One was an adrenal tumor ) she ended up having PT - which a very exp vet here missed- I figured it out and cabergoline gave her another 16 months ( she passed quietly in a coma - in our arms for 70 hrs before she finally left .

Most of the others others lived between to 2 1/2 to 5 yrs . __________________
.Next few - One of PT treated w/ success for 12 months Bear Bear age 3 1/4 yrs
One with Heart failure - Completely misdxed Gigi Over 3 yrs
One had an stroke / or brain tumor that burst Lola 3 1/2 yrs
Banjo - age 2 stroke

Molly Age 2 yrs 3 months - Pneumonia and undx Heart Disease

Since this post we lost our old folks to old age - Both within 24 hrs of each other - Very peaceful death at home ( ( we adopted them as seniors - over 2 yrs of age )
Leia a Seal Point PEW - 4 and 1/2 yrs old - she was Treated for PT for almost 2 yrs. She had been fine - feed her earlier in the day and then found her passed away in the back of her cage mid afternoon
her partner a Baltimore Street Rat "Harper " was over 5 yrs old and had lived with her since he was found on the streets as a young rat -
He had HED for 2 of the 3 yrs we had with him - we rigged a backend harness for him to wheelbarrel around. He passed away the next day - Again find- though depressed early morning, and noon - @ 4 pm I went to check on him and he was still warm- I'd like to thing that he was just wanted to be with his gal. They both had the best lives and deaths I could have hoped for . We buried them together in our little rock circle garden which is our rat resting place. We try and make sure that best pals are placed close by each other - and My husband engraves their stones with the rats name on them.