tumors

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wonderrodent

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
563
Location
Sanford, NC, USA
Chailyn has 4 tumors (cystadenomas) now. They are growing at a slower pace. I think she is getting another one right where she had her first tumor surgery. My vet in Wisconsin didn't want to put her under the knife (she had just battled pneumonia) and she'll be two in October. I am not sure what to do. She doesn't seem to be bothered by it and she acts totally normal. Chances are, even if I have them removed, that they'll grow back, I guess. Should I just leave her in peace? It's hard to look at but I am worried about her having surgery again.

DSCN9560.jpg
 
The only time I would do surgery on an older rat is if I have a top notch vet and if the rat was in the best of health.

It really is hard to see them with those nasty tumours. :(
 
Oh no :( I'm sorry you have to go through it.

I'm with Jo, I would only go through a surgery like that at her age if she was in immaculate health and with an amazing doctor. I'm thinking that the number of tumours would make the surgery even more complicated, though.
 
Hugs Astrid! I am dealing with that as well right now. It is so hard!

Unfortunately even if you put her through the surgery in which there is always some risk and even more since she most likely has comprimised lungs... the tumors will probably return right away. Our 'lumpy' rats are just destined to be lumpy.

I would keep her as comfortable as possible and spoil her a little bit rotten (but not too much!). ;)

If you don't mind me asking how long has it been since you discovered them to the time of that picture? My girl Tevy's lump is about the size of the largest one Chailyn has and it has only been 1 month.
 
It's a hard thing to be responsible for making the decision for.

I've come up against it so many times. I've only had tumors removed from 1 girl. That's because it's so expensive and money is very tight and I've had to weigh depleting the vet fund and not having it available for absolutely fixable problems that others get against the hopeful life benefit to one kid - not that any one is less valuable than the lot, but sometimes you don't have choices, you know?).
Honestly - I would have had the tumors removed from more girls had I had the funds available without taking it from the other's nestegg. But I wouldn't have done it for them all.

Will they recover normally or suffer complications? Can they have an appreciably healthy time beyond surgery & recovery and the next aging problem?

I've seen so many kids on the ratsites who had a surgery (or 2 or 3) and spent their last months here not enjoying them but recuperating. I've also seen so many that had tumors removed and had many great months til something else got them.

As Jo said, you have to consider 1st the health & spirit of the kid and the ability of your vet. You not only have to remove the tumors but have her spayed as well to lessen the chance of recurrence. My kids have always had the tumors start at about a year and a half. They're seniors by then.
So it's weighing the expectable problem-free time left them against the time enjoyable with the ever increasing mobility difficulties of growing tumors.

They will die from something. I'd rather put a kid to sleep when she's been grounded but not suffering from tumors than see her recover from surgery and be in the same boat a couple months later with debilitating stokes, or rear-end degeneration, or truly suffering with respiratory problems that cause daily agony & terror. But I'd be so happy to see her running around unrestricted a couple months later. But you can't read the future, you can only hope and have faith.

And how much time are you able to spend with them? If you work every day then you can't be home to move a grounded kid out of their pee and keep them washed, then maybe the cost of surgery is the best you can for them, if you don't work then you have time to keep their world big & interesting & fun and keep them clean.

I'd like for my decisions to be all about them. My desires have been, my abilities have to take them & me & my other kids into account. I'd like to make the right decisions for that particular kid. I don't know what the future holds for any one of them beyond the state they are in when I have to make a decision. So I do what I can. And I give all I can any way I can.

And I remember that the kid only cares what today is like. She doesn't give a hoot for tomorrow.

You decide what you with your abilities and disabilities can best give to Chailyn with her abilities and disabilites. If you have the tumors removed then bless every day that she runs unobstructed, if you don't then bless every day that she makes effort to come love you or do anything that was easy before, and when it's time for her to go because of them, thank god she didn't go in terror gasping for air in terror, or being neglected without food or water or love.

It's a sacred thing between you and Chailyn. Lives benefitted by each other, you can affect the day-to-day for each other but you can't cheat God's life-calendar, you can only interfere in the occasions in the time he has given you to be together.
Better to spend it loving than than stressing.
 
With benign tumors, there's really nothing that you can do about them. You could get them removed, but they will most likely return. I wouldn't be 100% positive that Chaiwyn would handle the surgery all that well, either. I remember after their spays.

So long as they're not causing her any real discomfort, she's still mobile, and is as happy as always, I see no reason to put her through that. I've seen dozens of rats with massive tumors who had no issues at all, and lived to a good old age. Because of their location, though, keep an eye out for any irritation as they grow larger. It may never even get big enough to drag the floor, but gravity is a cruel thing to all women. The friction can cause irritations, scabbing, etc at the site which would be uncomfortable for her.

Lots of kisses to my Chaiwyn! [and Punzy and Fawnzy, too!]
 
Thank you so much, everybody!!! Gave me a lot to think about!
I do have a vet appointment with all three for a check-up and I would like to know what my new vet has to say. I heard this vet is great. It's actually a clinic only for exotic animals. I already know that I won't put her through surgery. Removing 4 (or 5) is crazy and obviously she is prone to them so they'll just come back anyway. She really is in good spirits despite her hind leg problem, tumors and cataract. She is amazing. Kat, all 3 girls did actually great after the spay. Chailyn did wonderful after the tumor removal and the spay. Like nothing ever happened. Also when she had pneumonia, she acted totally normal. She is very strong it seems like. She is my super-girlie.

Lise, I just read your thread. I am so sorry that you are going through this too. (I have to catch up on a lot of threads).
OK your question was when she started having them:
The tumor that had been removed developed pretty fast (like you said, suddenly they are there). That was January. At the same time she developed the cystadenomas on both sides of her body. First I thought she had gained weight because it looked like little fat deposits hanging down. They weren't lumps yet at all. But the vet felt them and said there is something going on. So during surgery she opened up her sides too and scraped out some sandy-like, black and white material in between her mammary glands. However, this stuff kept slipping away and she couldn't get everything out. Chailyn was already under for 45 minutes.
About 3 weeks after the surgery I heard about the coriolus mushroom pills. I bought them for her and I've been giving her the crushed pills ever since. (Lise, maybe you could start with the coriolus mushroom pills too. Maybe it will delay the growth of the tumor). So between the surgery and the picture taken it's been 8 1/2 months. They've been growing slowly compared to other mammary tumors. I don't know if it's because cystadenomas are a little different from the normal mammary tumors (or are they?) or because the coriolus mushroom pills delayed the growth.
In July, a month before we moved, I had Chailyn checked out again. The vet told me not to do surgery since she just had pneumonia (in June), the tumors are growing slowly and she will be 2 beginning of October. In rattie years, 7 months (between the surgery and the check up) are a lot of human years so even if she did great in February doesn't mean she'll do great now.
There is something else my vet explained to me. I am a little bit confused about it (that's why I want to ask the other vet) and I am not even sure if I understood her correctly:
She was wondering why Chailyn gets the cystadenomas (they were benign by the way) although she had been spayed. There is no more (or not as much) estrogen production anymore so something else must make the tumors grow. Well, there is a hormone called prolactin. Prolactin is being produced by the Pituitary Gland. If the PG produces too much prolactin, there might be a tumor on the PG and that also makes tumors grow in the body. She prescribed "Dostinex" for her (also called Cabergoline). I ordered it online but I still haven't received it. The vet hopes that it will shrink the tumors and the possible tumor on the PG. But Chailyn doesn't have any PT symptoms. The only thing is her bulged eye (behind it lies the PG). So I have no idea if the vet is right. She has never tried it on rats before. She got the info from a vet in NY (they've tried it on ferrets).
Prolactin wasn't new to me since I had the same problem. I was producing too much prolactin so my doctor took an MRI. Turned out I have a tiny growth on my PG. The doctor didn't want to mess with pills though since it's so small but I should have check-ups every year. (I don't have any tumors growing on my body though).

I tried to find more info about cystadenomas in rats on the internet but couldn't find anything. I feel like my girl is the only one.
Sorry this post is so long but I thought this might help someone and it's quite interesting. I will give updates on what the other vet said and how the dostinex pills are working for her.
 
I meant more how worried you were about them, heh. If I can avoid panicking over their health, I try to. Obviously, if it's in their best interest it has to be done, but in this case I don't think it's 100% needed. Sorry I wasn't more clear! :D
 
The slow/delayed growth with the masses could be due to the spay and not the coriolus. My sister had a female, she's 29 months old, spayed since 2 months old and has just recently developed a mammary tumour. But it's very slow growing.

Do you know what's the difference with cystadenomas and typical mammary tumours?
 
Oh, that could be, Jo! Thanks for pointing this out.
No, I don't what the difference is. That's another reason why I am quite confused. This is one question I want to ask my vet.
 
I just got my order of coriolus yesterday. I am going to try giving it, though I think at this point when Tevy's tumor is already dragging on the ground in between her legs it is probably too late. Can't hurt to try though. Are you giving 1/4 pill a day?

Jill (Dearpie) was nice enough to send me some other holistic stuff as well from a "tumor recipe" but it tastes foul and she won't eat it even mixed with cool whip or banana.

I am hoping the coriolus by itself she will eat. I am not going to force this stuff on her.

It seems like (from google) a cystadenoma is just a tumor with basically a cyst (sac) in the middle. I would be curious to know too how this differs from a regular tumor.
 
I have a tumour girl at home as well, and like Fidget would like to have them all removed but it might be taking money from the vet fund for something truly fixable like an illness or emergency surgery, as awful as that sounds. :(

If a rat develops one young then I will consider the surgery because they have a good chance at a much longer life. If they contract them while older, I leave them be. Tiny little 2 year old Portia has one but its not really slowing her down. She can still manage to climb my granny cart with that big thing and get onto the kitchen counter to gleefully knock things down and stare at them on the floor. :doh:

She runs on her toes now because the tumour is dragging below her, javakittie is right that gravity is not kind to women!! :lol3:
 
On one of the tumors a little bit of fur is missing so you can see the skin. I think she licks and grooms there. What shall I out on there? Something like neosporin? I bet she would lick if off, though.

With 4 tumors and one new one I just discovered, surgery would be far too risky.

Lise, here is the website about the coriolus mushroom and how much you should give. I mix it with shark cardilage. If you overdose it by accident it's OK since it's also an immune booster and it won't hurt your rat. Hopefully, it will slow down the growth a bit! Good luck!
 
In the last month, Chailyn's tumors have grown a lot faster!
I went to the vet yesterday. I mentioned the drug my other vet prescribed because she thought her tumors have to do with the production of prolactin (and therefore she also might have a PT. She doesn't have any signs though). My new vet (he is an exotic vet only) said he has never heard of it before or used it in rats and since he does think her tumors are estrogen based, I shouldn't give her the pills. So I'll try the Tamoxofin.
 
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