Oreo's Inguinal Tumor- Open and Infected?

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I think one word in Aida's phrase is confusing the issue, she said "unless all the tumour was removed, the surgical wound wouldn't even close". If you remove the tumour you have an incision, which would be closed because you removed the tumour and are able to close it now.
 
Petunia said:
OK well with all the other rats with tumors on the board right now I'm getting confused.

I don't know that this tumor is necrotic.........?

here's what Aida wrote:
"she has a really quickly-growing mammary tumor in her groin, that has opened to the outside."

and

"Also, the tumor is open, and the fear is that, unless all the tumor tissue is removed, the surgical wound wouldn't even close."

this is what was making me nervous about the surgery.
but then My vet thinks an 18 mos old rat is too older for surgery, so.........that's probably another reason why I am a lot more worried about surgery than others with a confident and experienced vet might be.

I don't know what all the terms mean, I thought ruptured and ulcerated meant the same thing
but necrotic means the tissue is dying, as it would in an older tumor.......?
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It sounds like Aida's girls tumour has ruptured either from necrosis from the inside (lack of blood supply, tissue dies) or it has been stretched too tight and basically is ripping open.

ulcerated is usually from rubbing, the tissue of tumours is often very thin, and constant rubbing can cause issues. Sometimes this can stay a rough thick scab, other times it will open up and bleed...but its usually just a skin issue not a deep tissue thing.

ruptured is from internal necrosis or the skin pulled too tight. The tumour opens up and infection usually sets in quite quickly.
 
ohhhhhhhhhhhh ok I think I understand now! thanks for explaining it so patiently. I'm imagining something much more awful, based partly on photos I've seen of cancer patients (human) who lost, well, um...let's just say, I was picturing something way too far gone to do anything about. :/
 
Oh guys, sorry, I leave for a few hours to clean the cage and BAM, so many replies!

I don't have a perfect understanding of necrosis vs. ruptured vs. ulcerated either, but I posted the direct vet report card under my post, the italicized part. I think that what she meant by "wouldn't close", the vet that is, is that cancerous tissue doesn't heal(right?) so if the tumor can't be completely removed or with "clean margins"(not that sure what this means...), then the tissue, even if pulled together, might not heal back together? I might have caused some of this confusion.
As for the tumor rubbing and the tissue over it wearing away, that couldn't have been the case because the lump is far too small, even now it is not touching the ground at all. I didn't even see a lump at first, I thought this was an abscess! This is the thread where I wondered if it's an abscess, and posted a video of the wound: http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29679
I'm going to try and snap a few pictures and post them now to give you all a better idea of the size and situation.

That is how I understood it, but if any of this doesn't sound right, let me know so that I can call my vet ASAP. Today they called me at school to check on Oreo, and when I said that she isn't doing much better, they said that they will want to see her again if there is no improvement by tomorrow. I think the metacam is helping her a bit, but it is hard to say, and the infection is definitely still there and maybe even worse. I will talk to my mom about surgery tonight(I will probably need to borrow the money from her), and tomorrow I plan to call them about scheduling a removal or speaking to the vet about it.
 
Petunia said:
ohhhhhhhhhhhh ok I think I understand now! thanks for explaining it so patiently. I'm imagining something much more awful, based partly on photos I've seen of cancer patients (human) who lost, well, um...let's just say, I was picturing something way too far gone to do anything about. :/
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Here are some pictures I just took, she is very squirmy. I am also uploading a video(15%) where you will hopefully be able to see it a bit better.

20140424_212939.jpg


20140424_212911.jpg
 
Oh jeez, great. The vet said mammary on the lower nipple, is that the same thing...?
 
That looks like an inguinal tumour which is extremely hard to remove because it wraps itself around the urethra. I'll let lilspaz check out your video, she's dealt with those several times. I had two girls with it and both times, my vet couldn't remove them. :(

Here's my Bebe, does it look like that?

Bebebobo.jpg
 
jorats said:
That looks like an inguinal tumour which is extremely hard to remove because it wraps itself around the urethra. I'll let lilspaz check out your video, she's dealt with those several times. I had two girls with it and both times, my vet couldn't remove them. :(

Here's my Bebe, does it look like that?
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It is really hard to tell without looking at it from the bottom...
It is not low enough on her to be touching her vagina or anus, and it isn't very large. The vet was able to grab it a pull it from the body, as in hold it removed under the skin, and she didn't mention anything about it being inguinal, only mammary on the nipple. I know it is hard to see from the pictures, and the video isn't much more helpful. I really, really hope it is not wrapped around her urethra like you said.

I remember my vet saying that it has not passed toward her organs into her inside body cavity, like it hasn't gone through those membranes yet, and she said that it can be removed and she can do it. The biggest issues were just cost, and recovery/recurrence. I will bring this up tomorrow when I call and ask about it directly, I am making a list of questions. Oh no and I was getting so hopeful...
 
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I'm sorry you're going through this. I don't have any advice or info on tumors but when the vet says "clean margins" she means complete (or near complete) removal of the cancerous cells.

My thoughts are with you and Oreo <3 stay strong!
 
That looks like a nasty but localized tumour (it does not look mammary to me but it really doesn't mean much)...if your vet can pull it from the body then its not into the abdominal cavity, which some inguinal (groin area) tumours do. I have seen this but it was on a very very old girl with resp issues, so I left it.

Lets see if I can explain more for you.

Clean margins means that the vet has to remove more tissue than just the tumour to make sure they only have healthy tissue left. Any affected cells left behind may mean that the tumour regrows again and quickly. This is why we see a grape-sized tumour, expect the incision to be small and its much longer than we expect. For any tumour surgery (human or animal) they need to have clean margins all the way around, or make sure they are into healthy tissue/cells after the removal.

The fact that she can pull it from the body means it has only one smaller attachment. Some mammary inguinals are attached wherever they touch the body, they are hard and lumpy and sometimes invasive where they have grown into the abdomen and have attached or wrapped around internal organs...these are inoperable. Yours looks like a very easy surgery overall, the issue your vet has is the skin layer on the top IS compromised (unlike most mammary tumours where the tumour keeps growing, the skin stretches, your skin is open and unusable. I would still take the chance on the surgery and the closure because that tumour has to go. You just don't have a choice here. It will be surgery or pretty soon you will be having her put to sleep :(
 
I agree with lilspaz, if the vet was able to pull it off the body and know it's not attached to anything, then I'd get the surgery done. Because it won't be long when she will need to be put to sleep because of it.
 
Thanks guys. I'm so happy to have this place to come here and help with decisions like this. If I did nothing and then found information like this, that there is very little choice and surgery is the only choice, I would never let myself live it down. I'm just extremely worried about her making it and recovering quickly, and those clean margins. I hope it isn't an issue and it can be done, and it is an easy surgery like you said, lilspaz. And I agree with you too, jorats. I don't see how she can live like this much longer, especially with infection setting in and not going away. It smells BAD, and is bleeding or leaking constantly.

Another factor is that the infection isn't getting better, in fact it might even be worse. My lunch break is in an hour and I'm going to call the vet and ask for quote and a call back from the vet. Last time the vet said around $350, but my mom wants me to make sure. She doesn't think I will pay her back and won't let me sell my personal belongings to pay for it, for some reason that I do not understand. Hopefully she'll give in though, and I can make a deal to go to work with her like I did before, or pay her back as I slowly get money saved up, which shouldn't be too long with my birthday coming up.
 
I am a new rat owner and I'm dreading making decisions like this so it's good to see how supportive everyone is and how much information everyone can provide.

Aida, the way I look at it is, you can get the surgery done and there is a chance of her not making it through the surgery or passing not too long afterwards. But if you do the surgery, you're giving her the best chance at survival and living happily and not in pain or slowed down by her tumor. If she does happen to pass (I'm praying that this is not the case), well, you tried everything you could. Her quality of life would've been compromised had you not at least tried the surgery and as others are saying, she probably wouldn't be around for a very long time. You're giving it all you've got and I'm sure Oreo knows that. And I'm sure she'll give it all she's got too.

I hope you can get the finances figured out and my thoughts and prayers are truly with you and Oreo. And hopefully the vet brings that price down a little. :)
 
mehganxo said:
I am a new rat owner and I'm dreading making decisions like this so it's good to see how supportive everyone is and how much information everyone can provide.

Aida, the way I look at it is, you can get the surgery done and there is a chance of her not making it through the surgery or passing not too long afterwards. But if you do the surgery, you're giving her the best chance at survival and living happily and not in pain or slowed down by her tumor. If she does happen to pass (I'm praying that this is not the case), well, you tried everything you could. Her quality of life would've been compromised had you not at least tried the surgery and as others are saying, she probably wouldn't be around for a very long time. You're giving it all you've got and I'm sure Oreo knows that. And I'm sure she'll give it all she's got too.

I hope you can get the finances figured out and my thoughts and prayers are truly with you and Oreo. And hopefully the vet brings that price down a little. :)
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That is how I see it too, I just wish it wasn't the case. :(

I just had to make the similar decision with my NoName a year ago. She developed a giant, internal, attached tumor- pretty much overnight- and it was starting to push on her lungs. The vet said that we can just keep her comfortable until it compromises her breathing too much, or we can try surgery, although, with such large internal tumors, it is not only a very invasive surgery, but also with bleak chances because if such a tumor is attached to any vital organs(as in, not the ovaries or uterus, in my girl's case), then it obviously is not removable. I took her home for a day, and in one night the tumor grew even more, so I decided that she won't live much longer and I'd rather just take the tiniest chances and maybe save her instead of never knowing. Sadly the tumor was attached to multiple organs, and wrapped up in her intestines, so the vet euthanized her during surgery. Afterwards, she told me that NoName wouldn't have had more than maybe a day or two, anyways, if we had let it stay. :(
It was very heartbreaking, but I didn't feel any guilt, because I did try everything I could, and she passed without every feeling any pain or knowledge that she may be dying.


Whoa, way to get off track.... I'm much more hopeful about Oreo going into surgery! The tumor isn't internal, it's far smaller, and removable. It's always scary, but I'm getting more and more convinced that it is the right choice.
 
Aw. I'm sorry about NoName. But that's what I mean. You can't feel guilty, no matter what happens because you know and we know you did all you could or made the best decision for you and Oreo.

And remember; the right choice is whatever you choose.
 
I called the vet office and they said that because my vet won't be in until tuesday, she can't call me till wensday or so and they might not be able to get the surgery in, because they are booked-- unless the vet makes an exception. Mom said OK and I really wanted to do this, I'm worried over wensday being too late almost... >___<

Hopefully they can get me in, or at least move my case to another vet....
 
I think you are doing the right thing trying surgery too. So much time to gain by trying.
I really hope she can get in soon! Fingers crossed for Oreo...
 
Today I called another vet in the area that I heard is experienced with rats. I explained the situation, with me not knowing if my vet can do the surgery soon, and they said that their vet is experienced and to give them a call if on Wednesday my vet says that she can't squeeze us in. Fingers crossed that this will all work out!
 

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