Need help with Baytril/Minocycline and dosing?

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Renee

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I've had Daya on Doxy (0.03 mls at 100mg/ml), and Baytril (0.22 mls at 22.7mg/ml) since 11/24/19 and Janny on the same thing since 11/05/19.

Daya was getting so much better, Janny got better but stopped improving.

I went to a new vet because I didn't like the first one very much, and the new vet prescribed something different, under the knowledge I said above.

She made the medicine herself and she recalled things she read in books or what A&M university told her, and when she gave me the medicine, it was sort of chunky. Long story short; She was a little sketchy and it made me nervous, so I need someone to double check her doses.

She also insisted on minocycline, even when I had asked for azithromyacin

She gave me a bottle that says: "Give 0.4 cc orally twice a day to Daya and Janny for URTI. Baytril 10mg/ml and minocycline 5mg/ml. 6 cc LA baytril with 3- 100mg minocycline plus 54 cc strawberry.
Refills: 0, Quanity: 6, Baytril injectible 100mg/ml"

Can someone translate this to something easier to understand?

My concern is that, from a glance, it seems like she lowered the amount of baytril per dose my ratties will be taking. Is that right, and is that bad?
 

lilspaz68

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Hi there,

I looked up minocycline and its a weaker version of doxycycline and I can only attempt to figure out dosing by using the recommended dosages for doxycline.

But lets go see what she's done okay? (Sorry I didn't see this post earlier)

First though I need the weights on both your girls.

You need weights, concentrations (we have) and recommended dosages (which I can provide) to figure out a dose for your rat.
 

Renee

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Hi there,

I looked up minocycline and its a weaker version of doxycycline and I can only attempt to figure out dosing by using the recommended dosages for doxycline.

But lets go see what she's done okay? (Sorry I didn't see this post earlier)

First though I need the weights on both your girls.

You need weights, concentrations (we have) and recommended dosages (which I can provide) to figure out a dose for your rat.
I put both Daya and Janny on this new medicine. I tried to get the vet to give me azithromyacin instead of minocycline but she insisted.
Daya is heavier than Janny but she has them both taking the same amount. I will do my best to find their weight but for now all I know is that Janny is over 300 grams and Daya is over 400. Thank you for your help!
 

PiddlePod

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I did a little research on Minocycline after Renee had mentioned that her new vet recommend it over Doxycycline. It looks like Minocycline may be a good alternative when Doxy just isn't cutting it. There are a couple of research papers toting its benefits from acting as an anti-inflammatory (like Doxy) and it shares many of the attributes and actions as Doxy.

I was surprised to also find out that Minocycline is able to penetrate tissues deeper than Doxycycline and that Minocycline has excellent lung tissue penetration superior to Doxycycline. Minocycline, like Doxy, can be given as a once daily dosage (at the guidance of a veterinarian as to what that appropriate therapeutic dosage is).

It looks like Minocycline is dosed much like Doxycycline at 5mg/kg - 10mg/kg PO BID. Considering that Doxycycline has been the staple antibiotic in treating Mycoplasmosis infections in rats for the past 20 years, I believe it may be safe to assume that mycoplasma pulmonis may have developed a resistance to Doxycycline. This has been discussed in recent veterinary literature (2016-2018) in that Minocycline is now recommended as a strong alternative to Doxycycline in the presence of mycoplasma pulmonis. Beans and Pi have a check-up today with their exotics vet, so I'll take the opportunity to discuss Minocycline during their appointment and I'll share any additional guidance/information here as well. :)

Here is a recent article from 2018 regarding Minocycline in the use of Veterinary Medicine and it discusses the usage and therapeutic benefit as well as its activity against gram negative and gram positive bacterium:

Side effects, drug interactions and administration are very similar to the other Tetracyclines. Greene and others suggest a dose of 5-10 mg/kg orally or IV twice daily for 7-14 days for most infections (as reported in Plumbs).

Recent studies by Dr. Mark Papich at NC State and Dr. Leah Cohn at University of Missouri (cat study), and with Dr. Marit Maaland of the University of Copenhagen (dog study) determined optimum doses to meet pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic (PK-PD) targets. These studies, based on pharmacokinetics in 6 cats and 6 dogs suggests the following doses:

Cats:

Start with 8.8 mg/kg (OK to round up to 10 mg/kg) orally, once daily. Also can give 50 mg per cat (one tablet or capsule), once a day. A single dose of 50 mg is higher than necessary, but allows for tablets or capsules to be used intact. Always flush with a bit of water or food to avoid esophageal lesions from the hydrochloride.

Dogs:

Use 5 mg/kg orally, twice daily for bacteria with MIC of 0.25 ug/mL or below, (most susceptible bacteria are in this range), and 10 mg/kg orally twice daily for bacteria with MIC of 0.5 ug/mL (some of the streptococci and Staph aureus may be this high).

Issues to keep in mind:

  • Doses at the high end of the range may be more likely to make dogs vomit, in their experience. (Not sure about cats, but something to watch for.)
  • Minocycline can also be given IV (but not likely because the vials are expensive). Use a dose of 5 mg/kg, once daily, but give slowly over at least 10 minutes.
  • For compounding (e.g. mixing with some liquid vehicle) keep in mind that (similar to doxycycline) it is a highly unstable drug and will degrade quickly and rapidly lose its potency (particularly in UV light, room temperature, with any cations, etc.). The capsules could be opened and diluted just prior to administration.
  • There is more toxicity to RBC's (hematocrit) at >10 mg/kg dose.
The oral absorption is almost 100% in people and is good in horses. In Dr. Papich’s study in dogs the oral absorption was approximately 50% in fasted dogs. There is no assurance that fed dogs would have the same absorption. Oral absorption in cats was approximately 62%. Minocycline is excreted partially in the urine; therefore, these doses should produce active concentrations in urine for treating urinary tract infections. Minocycline is more lipophilic than doxycycline and other tetracyclines. It is also less protein bound than doxycycline. These features predict that there is good penetration into the lungs, prostate, CSF, intracellular spaces, etc.

There is data to show that organisms such as Wolbachia are more susceptible to minocycline than other tetracyclines. A study done here at UC Davis years ago showed almost 81% coverage of Mycobactria from dogs compared to doxycycline (29%). It also covers Bordetella, Pasturella, Brucella, Coxiella, MRSP, Mycoplasma, etc. Some methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus may be resistant to doxycycline and other tetracyclines, but susceptible to minocycline. However, susceptibility testing is always needed to confirm susceptibility. Unless susceptibility tests confirm susceptibility, minocycline is not recommended as the drug of choice for gram negative infections caused by Enterobacteriaceae such as E. coli or Klebsiella or for Anaerobic, Proteus, and Pseudomonas infections.
 
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PiddlePod

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Returned from Beans and Pi's vet visit with some awesome news and additional information regarding the Minocycline. :)

I don't want to hijack the thread and go into too much detail regarding Beans, so I'll post details as an update to one of Beans' threads shortly. :)

Our veterinarian was very receptive to cycling the Doxycycline to Minocycline. We will start Beans at 10 mg/kg under a trial period to observe for stability, for any improvement or decline. Our vet informed us that he could not find established dosages for Minocycline in their exotics formulary which would categorize Minocycline as an experimental treatment. It has only recently come into the spotlight for its therapeutic use in exotics.

The confirmed dosage for Minocycline is 5 mg/kg - 10 mg/kg PO BID with 10 mg/kg being the recommended dose.

I hope this additional information is useful for those considering Minocycline. :)
 

Renee

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Returned from Beans and Pi's vet visit with some awesome news and additional information regarding the Minocycline. :)

I don't want to hijack the thread and go into too much detail regarding Beans, so I'll post details as an update to one of Beans' threads shortly. :)

Our veterinarian was very receptive to cycling the Doxycycline to Minocycline. We will start Beans at 10 mg/kg under a trial period to observe for stability, for any improvement or decline. Our vet informed us that he could not find established dosages for Minocycline in their exotics formulary which would categorize Minocycline as an experimental treatment. It has only recently come into the spotlight for its therapeutic use in exotics.

The confirmed dosage for Minocycline is 5 mg/kg - 10 mg/kg PO BID with 10 mg/kg being the recommended dose.

I hope this additional information is useful for those considering Minocycline. :)
This is some awesome stuff! I'd also like to add that both Daya and Janny have completely cleared up with the minocycline and baytril combo that my vet gave me
 

PiddlePod

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This is some awesome stuff! I'd also like to add that both Daya and Janny have completely cleared up with the minocycline and baytril combo that my vet gave me
That is such great news to hear! When you mentioned that Janny was quick to respond to the new minocycline/enrofloxacin combo, it peaked my curiosity. I did my research and read up more on Minocycline as a possible alternative to Doxycycline for my own boys. I have a new prescription for Minocycline (as HCl) 100 mg/ml, Susp 30 ml in Strawberry flavor with a dose volume of 0.06ml twice daily, that should arrive in a couple of days. :)

BTW I forgot to mention that Minocycline has been used (mostly off label) as an anti-inflammatory in the treatment of degerative disorders (eg Rheumatoid arthritis, spondylosis, spinal stenosis) and it also possesses immune-modulating and neuroprotective properties. It has a broad and incredibly fascinating range of beneficial and therapeutic properties. After having read up on it, it's actually a really cool semi-synthetic tetracycline.

The majority of these findings were discovered during clinical trials in the mid 90s, followed by some waning interest in Minocycline until mid 2015 with a handful of clinical trials investigating it's neuroprotective properties. From 2017 to present it seems to have fallen back into the spotlight again, most recently due to its application in veterinary medicine.

From what I've gathered through brief research and through what was discussed with my team of exotics veterinarians today, it's likely that as interest in minocycline grows and inspires additional clinical trials and research into its therapeutic and bacteriostatic properties, I can see it becoming a first-line antibiotic over Doxycycline in veterinary medicine.

I believe that this is especially important when we're talking about the topic of exotic veterinary medicine. Much of which we see has been adapted from the study of veterinary science in a research and/or laboratory setting. What we observe today that is considered modern "exotic" veterinary medicine, hasn't changed much (in regards to antibiotics and their applied
treatment protocols) in the past 30 years, ever since the very first administration of Doxycycline to a laboratory rat sometime between 1989/1990 (its usage in laboratory veterinary medicine was proposed in 1988).

So, who knows...maybe through more experimentation and observation we might see minocycline and enrofloxacin combinations being preferred over doxycycline and enrofloxacin as the antibiotic of choice in the future. :)

For more info on the properties of minocycline, check out this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651660/#__ffn_sectitle
 

Renee

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That is such great news to hear! When you mentioned that Janny was quick to respond to the new minocycline/enrofloxacin combo, it peaked my curiosity. I did my research and read up more on Minocycline as a possible alternative to Doxycycline for my own boys. I have a new prescription for Minocycline (as HCl) 100 mg/ml, Susp 30 ml in Strawberry flavor with a dose volume of 0.06ml twice daily, that should arrive in a couple of days. :)

BTW I forgot to mention that Minocycline has been used (mostly off label) as an anti-inflammatory in the treatment of degerative disorders (eg Rheumatoid arthritis, spondylosis, spinal stenosis) and it also possesses immune-modulating and neuroprotective properties. It has a broad and incredibly fascinating range of beneficial and therapeutic properties. After having read up on it, it's actually a really cool semi-synthetic tetracycline.

The majority of these findings were discovered during clinical trials in the mid 90s, followed by some waning interest in Minocycline until mid 2015 with a handful of clinical trials investigating it's neuroprotective properties. From 2017 to present it seems to have fallen back into the spotlight again, most recently due to its application in veterinary medicine.

From what I've gathered through brief research and through what was discussed with my team of exotics veterinarians today, it's likely that as interest in minocycline grows and inspires additional clinical trials and research into its therapeutic and bacteriostatic properties, I can see it becoming a first-line antibiotic over Doxycycline in veterinary medicine.

I believe that this is especially important when we're talking about the topic of exotic veterinary medicine. Much of which we see has been adapted from the study of veterinary science in a research and/or laboratory setting. What we observe today that is considered modern "exotic" veterinary medicine, hasn't changed much (in regards to antibiotics and their applied
treatment protocols) in the past 30 years, ever since the very first administration of Doxycycline to a laboratory rat sometime between 1989/1990 (its usage in laboratory veterinary medicine was proposed in 1988).

So, who knows...maybe through more experimentation and observation we might see minocycline and enrofloxacin combinations being preferred over doxycycline and enrofloxacin as the antibiotic of choice in the future. :)

For more info on the properties of minocycline, check out this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3651660/#__ffn_sectitle
That's awesome, I'm glad you're so talented with understanding these medications! And I use the strawberry flavor too. My rats love it and my healthy rats try to steal some aswell. My only complaint is the dose my very gave me, it's a lot to give when they don't want to take it, so I have to give it half at a time
 

PiddlePod

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That's awesome, I'm glad you're so talented with understanding these medications! And I use the strawberry flavor too. My rats love it and my healthy rats try to steal some aswell. My only complaint is the dose my very gave me, it's a lot to give when they don't want to take it, so I have to give it half at a time
Oh! Thank you, Renee! I appreciate the compliment. It's nothing special really-- I'm just a nerd who enjoys this sort of thing. ;) But, thank you very much.❤

I'm glad that it was compounded in a flavoring that works pretty well for your girls. Baytril can be tricky to mask since it tastes absolutely terrible on its own. That was one of my complaints too! Those large volumes...I don't know why exotics vets compound their meds that way when they know that they have smaller patients. The exotics veterinary practice that we go to does the same thing and it drives me nuts lol. That's why I always ask them to please call it in to Wedgewood and ask them to give me a small amount to take home.

If a rat wants to be a butt and they're not in the mood for medicine time, a dosage like 0.4ml can be a real challenge to get in them, so I can certainly empathize. :( If it comes down to your girls needing antibiotics in the future, keep Wedgewood (or any compounding pharmacy) in mind for the next time. Depending on the medication they can compound (as a combo like you have now, or as two separate medications) at just about any concentration, from as low as 2 mg/ml to 500 mg/ml or higher which will give you a dose as low as 0.04ml. When you're dealing with multiple life time medications, a dinky 0.04ml dose really makes a difference.

I hope your girls are feeling 100% by now! Sending New Year wishes to all of your girls, that they have many, many years and many, many months of excellent health. :)❤
 

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