Harlan Teklad Q

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OceanEyes117

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
220
Location
California
I am changing my rats to Harlan, because I think I've finally found someone near-ish by to get it from. But I don't know what version I should be getting. I have one girl and one (neutered) boy. She is about 9 mos, and he was just adopted and silly me forgot to ask how old the studly is... (look for pictures of the handsome guy in rat chat later today...)
So, who likes which formula and why? Which one would be the "best" for my little loves?
 
I like Harlan 2014 because of the low protien, good ingredients, and my rats love it.
All my rats, young and elderly eat it. Of course it is supplimented with daily vegs.
 
I too prefer the 2014 because it is only 14% protein. More and more studies seem to indicate that rats do better on a low protein diet. It also has very good ingredients.
The 2018 is also a very good block, it's higher in protein but a lot people choose the 18% protein.

I was talking to my vet about the low protein, in the past it was always thought that the smaller the animal the more protein it needs. This is most likely true for the wild rat since they need a lot of energy just to survive. But the high protein can cause problems in old age, but for the wild rat, their average lifespan is 9 months!
Our rats have it made, they live in clean habitat, they have food brought to them. They don't have to do much except choose which hammock to sleep in or which buddy they are going to flip over. The only real exercise they get is what they can when they have out time. So high protein is not necessary. In fact, it most likely causes kidney disease.
The University of Guelph which specializes in animal sciences have changed their protocols when doing postmortems. When they see crystals in the kidneys, it is no longer reported as a disease but a fact of old age. High protein on old failing kidneys is painful and progresses the disease.
The University of Guelph feeds their in house rodents the 2014.
 
I personally use the 2016 (I keep getting that mixed up with 2018, so anywhere else I've said 2018, I was lying!) as a general maintenance. When I tried the 2014 on my rats, they didn't do so well. On the 2016 they've done great. Just my personal experience.
 
Sorraia said:
I personally use the 2016 (I keep getting that mixed up with 2018, so anywhere else I've said 2018, I was lying!) as a general maintenance. When I tried the 2014 on my rats, they didn't do so well. On the 2016 they've done great. Just my personal experience.

Didn't do so well... like how...?

Thanks for all your info everyone!
 
OceanEyes117 said:
Sorraia said:
I personally use the 2016 (I keep getting that mixed up with 2018, so anywhere else I've said 2018, I was lying!) as a general maintenance. When I tried the 2014 on my rats, they didn't do so well. On the 2016 they've done great. Just my personal experience.

Didn't do so well... like how...?

Thanks for all your info everyone!

They were too thin for my liking (underweight thin), their fur was rough and brittle, they developed scabs that did not go away with treatment, overall not as healthy as they should have been. Once switched to 2016, they put one some weight (without getting fat), their skin and coat conditions improved, and have overall been healthier than they ever were on the 2014.
 
Sorraia said:
They were too thin for my liking (underweight thin), their fur was rough and brittle, they developed scabs that did not go away with treatment, overall not as healthy as they should have been. Once switched to 2016, they put one some weight (without getting fat), their skin and coat conditions improved, and have overall been healthier than they ever were on the 2014.

How long did you feed the 2014 and was this only on the adults? I checked the ingredients, they are similar. It's weird that 2% difference in protein would cause dermal problems. Usually it's a too high protein that causes those symptoms. Although, it would have to be really high.
 
Here's a letter from the Harlan nutritionist:



"Thank you for your email. I am one of the nutritionists at Harlan Teklad. I am not a salesperson and you will not get sales spin from me. You are correct about the quality of our diets. We manufacture our diets using the same formulas each and every time. We have standard operating procedures that we follow with each and every production. We test our ingredients when they arrive to our production facilities and we audit our suppliers. So you can rest assured that when you feed our diets to your pets, that you are feeding a consistent and quality diet. Much of what Dux said is correct although some of the facts are not quite right or need clarification. First, Harlan Teklad manufactures diets specifically for laboratory animals. Our diets were never designed with the pet food industry in mind. We have never promoted our diets for pet mice and rats nor do we know much about this industry. In fact, until recently I was not aware of how well known our products were in the pet mouse and rat industry. Upon receiving quite a few emails from rat and mouse enthusiasts such as yourself, I did a little research on-line and was shocked at how many websites existed for rat and mouse enthusiasts and of how well known our products are. It was indeed an eye opener for me. So when Dux writes that our diets were not designed with the enthusiast in mind she is correct. However, we have many diets for mice and rats with different levels of nutrition, designed for different purposes and it is not accurate to paint them all with a broad brush as was done. We have over 22 diets for mice and rats. Some were formulated for breeding animals, some for general purpose (breeding and non-breeding), and others for rodents on long term (2 year) studies. First, one has to understand that many of these diets were formulated 15-20+ years ago when there was very little known about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats. To ensure that nutritional deficiencies did not occur the "more is better" approach was followed where diets were formulated to obtain nutrient levels that were known to prevent deficiency signs. Over-nutrition was not viewed as much of a concern compared to malnutrition, especially when feeding mice and rats on short studies. Thus many traditional rodent diets contain more protein that is required. Excessive protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. So excessive dietary protein can be a problem. Most lab animal diets like commercial diets for pigs and chickens are supplemented with vitamins and minerals to prevent deficiencies. Most food for human consumption is supplemented with the same vitamins. The supplemental vitamins do not harm the animal. They are not inherently bad as Dux would suggest.

Today we know much more about the nutritional requirements of mice and rats than be did when most diets were formulated. A breeding rat or mouse only needs about 18% crude protein and a non-breeding adult rat only needs about 9% crude protein or perhaps less. Yet most of our traditional diets contain 22-24% protein. In 2000 we launched a new range of diets which we called our Global Diets because they are available in both the U.S. and Europe. The Global Rodent Diets are 2014, 2016, 2018, and 2019. When these diets were formulated the present knowledge of the nutrient requirements of mice and rats was taken into consideration. Diet 2014 was formulated for non-breeding rodents on long-term studies (2 year). This diet has a low protein content of only 14%. Excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. Mice and rats that are not actively breeding do not require as much protein so it is appropriate to feed this diet to rodents on long-term studies rather than diets that contain 19-24% protein. Diet 2016 was designed quite honestly for customers who were afraid to feed a diet with only 14% protein. It is difficult to get customers who have been feeding 19-24% protein diets to switch to 14% protein but they might warm up to 16% protein, thus 2016. Diets 2018 and 2019 were designed for breeding mice and rats. These animals require more protein and energy to support gestation and most importantly lactation. Diet 2018 contains 18% protein and 6% fat. Diet 2019 contains 19% protein and 9% fat. Increasing protein potentially can harm the kidneys of aging mice and rats but it does not make mice and rats fat. In fact, it has a slight negative effect on weight and fat composition (remember the Atkins diet). Energy intake by the mouse or rat controls body weight and fat deposition. Diets 2014 and 2016 contain about 4% fat while diets 2018 and 2019 contain about 6% fat and 9% fat respectively. So diets 2018 and 2019 contain slightly more energy than 2014 and 2016. Mice and rats fed diets 2014 or 2016 may put on less weight than mice and rats fed 2018 and 2019 over the long term. But it is not the protein content that is responsible. It is the increase in fat and thus the increase in energy content of the diet that is responsible for weight gain and increase fat deposition.

What are my suggestions when it comes to maximizing the life expectancy of your mouse or rat? Well, Dux hit this one right on the head. Excess weight gain is the enemy of longevity in mice and rats as it is in humans and all mammals. Excessive body weight will accelerate the onset of the diseases associated with old age which for many mice and rats is cancer. Long-term studies with mice and rats show that when the animals are restricted to 2/3 of what they would normally eat when allowed unlimited access to food that they live longer and the diseases associated with old age occur at a later age. If I had pet rats or mice, I would feed them diet 2014. It has a low level of protein compared to all other diets. Remember excess protein can cause kidney damage in aging mice and rats. Diet 2014 contains enough fat to meet the requirements for essential fatty acids but less fat than most other diets so the energy content is lower than most other diets as well. This diet was designed to be fed to mice and rats on long-term 2-year studies. Essentially the aims of the researcher feeding the diet to their research animals are closely aligned with the aims of the rat or mouse enthusiast. Avoid high calorie supplements such as nuts, chips and other junk foods which while tasty, encourage excessive weight gain. The mice and rats may still get fat on 2014 as they age. In general mammals given unlimited access to food increase their weight as they age. You can seek to restrict the diet if you wish or you can supplement their diet with high fiber foods such as fruits and vegetables. High fiber foods will fill their stomachs making them feel full but contributing little to their energy intake. However, make sure that in feeding these high fiber supplements that you do not displace the diet by more than 33%. The animal is relying on the diet to meet its nutrient requirements. The supplements are for enrichment and an attempt to reduce excessive weight gain. Also, place items in the cage which decrease boredom. If I put you in a room with nothing to do, but with food always available you are going to spend a great deal of time eating and drinking too.

In closing I just want to remind you of something that you already know. Mice and rats have a short life expectancy. By controlling body weight gain through energy restriction you are adding at best a few weeks or months on to their lives. But, the quality of their lives may vastly improve which I would say is what is truly important. Also, if you are breeding I would recommend 2018. Do not feed 2014 to breeding mice and rats. It is too low in protein and will lead to deficiency.

Sincerely,
Chuck Benton, Ph.D.
Nutritionist/Technical Services
 
Our girls are on 2014 and have been for a year now and they are doing wonderfully. Beautiful shiny coats, healthy weights. We are personally happy with it.
 
jorats said:
Sorraia said:
They were too thin for my liking (underweight thin), their fur was rough and brittle, they developed scabs that did not go away with treatment, overall not as healthy as they should have been. Once switched to 2016, they put one some weight (without getting fat), their skin and coat conditions improved, and have overall been healthier than they ever were on the 2014.

How long did you feed the 2014 and was this only on the adults? I checked the ingredients, they are similar. It's weird that 2% difference in protein would cause dermal problems. Usually it's a too high protein that causes those symptoms. Although, it would have to be really high.

Mostly adults, but also some youngsters. I used it for a good year before I gave it up. Problems went away after I changed the lab blocks, and haven't had those problems since. Can't explain it, just my personal experience.
 
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