Fleece Murdering Rat

[Kaat]

Like many of you I have cages that are lined with fleece. The critter nation to be exact. One of my females, star, is murdering all of my fleece. I am making my own tray covers. Within 5 mins of placing new fleece she is already in a manic frenzy to destroy it. She is not agressive to me or her 1 cage mate, but if the the fleece was a living thing it would be screaming as she mutilates it. This is a new behavior. She previously left the fleece alone. Now she rips up half the floor, crawls under and then just sits on the hard plastic tray, which I do not like at all because if she is under there for a period of time she is just sitting in a puddle of her own pee. I thought maybe she is trying to hide feom her cage mate but they get along super well and never fight? As soon as I see her go at it I would make a loud noise to distract and she stops for second and then continues the onslaught. I tried that several times to no avail. So I tried thumping the side of the cage bars to try and make a bigger distraction, which also didnt work, and Ive tried as soon as she starts ripping, remove her from the cage for timeout, but as soon as she goes back in she spends all of 15 mins playing with the cage mate and then directly back to the fleecey terrorism. She is not pregnant if that matters. Im not sure what else to do. It would be fine if the fleece was chewed here or there over a few days but it takes her minutes to shred it and then she proceeds to just sit in her own pee. She is not interested in any of the vast majority of chewy items I have tried to pre occupy her with.

 

[Petunia]

since you said it's a new behavior, I'd be concerned about a possible medical condition

also how long have you had these rats? you've got your girls in one of half of a CN and the boys in the other half, correct? all intact?
does she do this more when she's in heat?
a heat happens about every 4 days for girls, at night primarily if I recall correctly.

I'd have her checked out to see if she's in pain or ill in some way.


if she's ok you might want to consider different cages in different rooms til the boys are neutered, if you decide to do that (I know that may not be feasible, just a suggestion)
or switching to a different kind of litter

she sounds like she might be happy with a litter she can dig in. I have a foster girl like that and since she's utterly destroyed my cage liners and tears up the heavy packing paper I put under that, I'm getting her some paper shred bedding to see if she likes that better.
There's also aspen shavings and other bedding

You can get giant cement mixing tubs to put on the tray in the CN to hold the bedding in or bass pans, those options aren't super cheap but it's a one time expense so may be worth it if she's shredding fleece that fast

another option is to put a layer -or several- of some sort of paper on the cage floor and then put fleece scraps on it, so that it's basically covered but the fleece is in loose pcs.
It seems some rats are offended by flat fleece LOL I don't understand it but my foster girl seems to be quite upset about anything laying flat on the cage floor, she must rip it up!! LOL

you have my sympathies, fleece chewers can be frustrating
esp if you've been making nice liners with good fleece :/

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

Like many of you I have cages that are lined with fleece. The critter nation to be exact. One of my females, star, is murdering all of my fleece. I am making my own tray covers. Within 5 mins of placing new fleece she is already in a manic frenzy to destroy it. She is not agressive to me or her 1 cage mate, but if the the fleece was a living thing it would be screaming as she mutilates it. This is a new behavior. She previously left the fleece alone. Now she rips up half the floor, crawls under and then just sits on the hard plastic tray, which I do not like at all because if she is under there for a period of time she is just sitting in a puddle of her own pee. I thought maybe she is trying to hide feom her cage mate but they get along super well and never fight? As soon as I see her go at it I would make a loud noise to distract and she stops for second and then continues the onslaught. I tried that several times to no avail. So I tried thumping the side of the cage bars to try and make a bigger distraction, which also didnt work, and Ive tried as soon as she starts ripping, remove her from the cage for timeout, but as soon as she goes back in she spends all of 15 mins playing with the cage mate and then directly back to the fleecey terrorism. She is not pregnant if that matters. Im not sure what else to do. It would be fine if the fleece was chewed here or there over a few days but it takes her minutes to shred it and then she proceeds to just sit in her own pee. She is not interested in any of the vast majority of chewy items I have tried to pre occupy her with.

If you don't have pure soil you can wet EcoEarth just enough to pack it down all the way tight (in a high broad casserole, bowl or cat litter pan) to see if the digging is the aspect she needs.
A rock at least a third her size (somewhat flat/smooth) in case it's to press against the hard floor while peeing.
A house with flap entrance for darkness. (As long as she'll go out to pee, it won't build up.)
A cloth something that's a big fluffy lumpy messy pile just plopped into the cage can fulfill that style of hiding. Or a pocket hammock on the floor, and for even more complete satisfaction it may need to be small enough to barely fit.
The other thing that worked for me, is I found she wanted to play where, she enters the hole she made (her covers are mattress pads), "burrows" along till she hits a barrier so I can lift it out of her way, & stage two is I rub her sides through the cover with my hand so she can pretend it's a rat to fight with. For all I know it makes her biting problem worse (or better) but otherwise, she's so bored/lonely unless I find a way to intro her.
Would love to hear what substitutions (if any) she says you were right about.

 

[jorats]

Could there be a smell she doesn't like? I did have rats at some point that some were crazy about tight fitting fleece but it wasn't a new behaviour. How does she act if you remove the fleece?

 

[Kaat]

Update: took her to the vet and comfirmed that she is healthy and had no underlying medical condition. Also I do not have any intact boys, so that wasmt it either, I changed litter to carefresh and she stopped using the box altogether so I went back to the old litter which is corn litter. She already had a pee rock in there. I tried giving her blankies and she pulled them into a her potty, left them there in tact, and promotly returned to fleece mauling. Tried to give her tight fitting fleece and and she ripped it off, put it in her litter and left it there. I just imagine her saying "What is this ****? Why is it here? Lets just put it in the **** box where it belongs."

It came to the point that every single piece of fleece I owned was destroyed, so I ordered some base pans and we are going that route instead. I really love the fleece idea, but no matter what im going to be dumping money into either replacing fleece or buying litter, and I went with the litter, cuz I cant have her sitting in her own pee under the fleece. I use the corn litter in the potty and walnut pellets in the base pan.

 

[Petunia]

she looks so innocent!!!

is that the way the cage is normally set up? she may want more toys and hides and things, she could possibly be bored.
You can cram a lot of stuff in the cage and they just love it that way, let me see if I can find some photos of cage set ups that help keep rats entertained

 

[Petunia]

gotta run out but here's a tutorial with some ideas

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

Update: took her to the vet and comfirmed that she is healthy and had no underlying medical condition. Also I do not have any intact boys, so that wasmt it either, I changed litter to carefresh and she stopped using the box altogether so I went back to the old litter which is corn litter. She already had a pee rock in there. I tried giving her blankies and she pulled them into a her potty, left them there in tact, and promotly returned to fleece mauling. Tried to give her tight fitting fleece and and she ripped it off, put it in her litter and left it there. I just imagine her saying "What is this ****? Why is it here? Lets just put it in the **** box where it belongs."

It came to the point that every single piece of fleece I owned was destroyed, so I ordered some base pans and we are going that route instead. I really love the fleece idea, but no matter what im going to be dumping money into either replacing fleece or buying litter, and I went with the litter, cuz I cant have her sitting in her own pee under the fleece. I use the corn litter in the potty and walnut pellets in the base pan.
View attachment 10888 View attachment 10885

Wow I hope that wasn't expensive, 3 guesses which profession started such a rumor. As soon as mine stop having the ability to dig & destroy as is a rat's purpose, definitely paying a vet to see what's the problem! If a diet improvement made her healthy enough to exercise or to try and escape some toxin in the air, the vet would have to stay at my house (and also be a rat) to tell us the cause.
On the two things we (think we) know:
1) She wants to be under cloth (cloth which isn't loose) - Is the only cloth she has to lie on, what I seem to see hanging from the shelf?
Does she instantly destroy hammocks to the point of unusability?
Does she refuse to ever lie in them?
Have you let her have a pocket hammock, to see if she needs to be being hugged (in the way she had been, when she went into her "house" she'd created)?
We don't throw away anything made of cloth, so there's always a cage stuffed with linens/clothes parts hanging from everywhere and each other.
To no-sew them in seconds, cut a hole in the two places you want to connect by tying with a strip of fabric.
Things like sleeves are already perfect for cozy moments.
You can cut an opening for them where needed, but an important part of their boredom prevention is in making their own back doors, windows & sniff-holes.
It takes them a lot of work time to turn them into lace & they stopped doing so, when they found I've no reason to throw them out till so ratty that when they get in it, they fall right through.
Not all of it is old sweatsuits, but fleece might be easier or more tempting to destroy than other fabrics.
2) The Soft-Fuzzy-Land-To-Turn-Into-A-Home was her only toy - I tried every rat toy I heard of but my rats didn't "get it".
So I watched them to see what they were telling me is a toy to them, & (keeping their wild roots in mind) thought up what might have those qualities even more so, so it evolved.
(Same with games, climbing & pettings. And treats of course.)
Spaghetti boxes (1st squished by human hands into a more cylindrical shape & the cellophane removed) & butter boxes with the bottoms opened gave them things to zip through, stopping to sniff out the window on her way & I hung some with string.
Grown bigger they've accordion tubes hanging from the top, 1 twisted so that they crawl up & down & up & down again.
Others can snake along making S's or do a U-ey or combined diagonal angles.
A curved PVC pipe attached to the side makes a tube slide & a Y or T-shaped on the floor makes for lying in wait preparing to surprise-pounce.
You can also make your hands around her into a long narrow passageway she has to keep squeezing through, as the back hand becomes the front on & on.
And all that's just the simulation of the going through tunnels they'd dug.
I guess we all became rat owners because we care, otherwise we might keep a pet rock to save the time & trouble.'''''''''''''''''''''oy77r78

 

[Kaat]

Wow I hope that wasn't expensive, 3 guesses which profession started such a rumor. As soon as mine stop having the ability to dig & destroy as is a rat's purpose, definitely paying a vet to see what's the problem! If a diet improvement made her healthy enough to exercise or to try and escape some toxin in the air, the vet would have to stay at my house (and also be a rat) to tell us the cause.
On the two things we (think we) know:
1) She wants to be under cloth (cloth which isn't loose) - Is the only cloth she has to lie on, what I seem to see hanging from the shelf?
Does she instantly destroy hammocks to the point of unusability?
Does she refuse to ever lie in them?
Have you let her have a pocket hammock, to see if she needs to be being hugged (in the way she had been, when she went into her "house" she'd created)?
We don't throw away anything made of cloth, so there's always a cage stuffed with linens/clothes parts hanging from everywhere and each other.
To no-sew them in seconds, cut a hole in the two places you want to connect by tying with a strip of fabric.
Things like sleeves are already perfect for cozy moments.
You can cut an opening for them where needed, but an important part of their boredom prevention is in making their own back doors, windows & sniff-holes.
It takes them a lot of work time to turn them into lace & they stopped doing so, when they found I've no reason to throw them out till so ratty that when they get in it, they fall right through.
Not all of it is old sweatsuits, but fleece might be easier or more tempting to destroy than other fabrics.
2) The Soft-Fuzzy-Land-To-Turn-Into-A-Home was her only toy - I tried every rat toy I heard of but my rats didn't "get it".
So I watched them to see what they were telling me is a toy to them, & (keeping their wild roots in mind) thought up what might have those qualities even more so, so it evolved.
(Same with games, climbing & pettings. And treats of course.)
Spaghetti boxes (1st squished by human hands into a more cylindrical shape & the cellophane removed) & butter boxes with the bottoms opened gave them things to zip through, stopping to sniff out the window on her way & I hung some with string.
Grown bigger they've accordion tubes hanging from the top, 1 twisted so that they crawl up & down & up & down again.
Others can snake along making S's or do a U-ey or combined diagonal angles.
A curved PVC pipe attached to the side makes a tube slide & a Y or T-shaped on the floor makes for lying in wait preparing to surprise-pounce.
You can also make your hands around her into a long narrow passageway she has to keep squeezing through, as the back hand becomes the front on & on.
And all that's just the simulation of the going through tunnels they'd dug.
I guess we all became rat owners because we care, otherwise we might keep a pet rock to save the time & trouble.'''''''''''''''''''''oy77r78

Im not really sure what you mean by what profession started a rumor? Im not sure what rumor you are referring to? She never ripped up the fleece before and since it was a new behavior I wanted to make sure she wasnt sick or have something else going on that caused the behavior change. Had this always been her personality then I prob would have skipped the vet visit. And as far as money goes Im willing to spend what is needed for my ratties, even if its for a vet visit to reassure myself that she is healthy. I know the vet can not tell me what the rat is thinking, but she could tell me if there was an underlying health issue.

Like I said in my update before I changed to base pans I tried giving her tight fitting fleece pockets to hide in and she pulled them up and put them in her litter and left them there untouched. She does not destroy the hammocks at all and she sleeps in both of them, the pink one with the basket and the purple one underneith the shelf. Both the hamocks have washcloths in them and she doesnt rip up the washcloths or drag them to the litter like she did the tight fitting fleece pocket, she leaves them inside the hammock and sleeps with them. She also has a critter space pod that hangs from the cieling that isnt in the pic because I had taken it our for cleaning. She sleeps there too, also with a washcloth. And she has not started ripping up anything else since moving to the base pans. She seems to really like the pellets, she does the "zoomies" running around in the pellets on the bottom and I also find her pushing the pellets around rearranging them. I think this is just better and I dont have to worry about her getting urine scald or something from sitting in her pee on the plastic pan that is underneith the fleece. She is super sweet to both me and her cage mate. She is a shoulder rat and hops right on when I open up the doors. I want her to be happy without compramising her health. And this way she gets to dig and run around in the pellets and the pellets will absorb the pee.

 

[Kaat]

she looks so innocent!!!

is that the way the cage is normally set up? she may want more toys and hides and things, she could possibly be bored.
You can cram a lot of stuff in the cage and they just love it that way, let me see if I can find some photos of cage set ups that help keep rats entertained

Thank you for your reply, I do plan to add more stuff to the cage for rattie entertainment.

 

[Petunia]

that's great that she likes the pellets! must be so furry to see her doing the zoomies in them. She may want more open space the way you have it, at least for the bottom.
I've got a foster who loves to dig at whatever is at the bottom of the cage, whether it's fleece or lined with paper. I tried putting in some of the paper shreds to see if she'd like that and while she did play in it, she wasn't as happy with it as I'd hoped.
I totally get trying to find what makes her happy.

I used to think the rats needed lots of empty space in the cage to run around but learned in time that they seemed to prefer that the cage have lots of different things to get in and out of. Butr then every rat is different and if yours is enjoying that space, well of course, you gotta leave it be for her!


your girl sounds like she might enjoy some coconut coir to dig thru- I should read thru the thread to see if you already tried that.

I also wonder if she'd be a swimmer, have you had a chance to introduce her/them to a container of water to do pea fishing etc, to see how she reacts?

I had one girl who immediately stuck her head UNDER water, and if I'd had a chance to make a deeper "pool" for her, I bet she would have gone swimming in it. sadly she passed away before that happened.

 

[SqueakingJellybean]

Toss in a full box of tissues (plastic bit removed) and watch her go! Cloth scraps also make great nesting/pushing-about material. Ours are also enamoured of brown packing paper and blank newsprint. Tear it into pieces at least as big as your hand, crunch them up a little, and place in the cage.

Seconding the idea of boxes. It’s hard to go wrong with boxes and rats.

 

[RatsDrawBlood]

Had this always been her personality then I prob would have skipped the vet visit.

Oh! Thanks for explaining that was considered a worsening of personality.
But for me there isn't the money for such, so had to ask.
I'd thought abnormal hyperactivity would be no matter what the rat's doing, & strange chewing behavior would be strange for a rat, not strange for the week!
I'd assumed you were just trying (& succeeding actually) to be funny with how you described it, but now wondering if you thought it could've been aggression toward fleece. It was the opposite of aggression, because she knows it can't feel & is practicing for how she'll protect her cagemates when a snake shows up.
My examples are just based on what I'd read were true stories.
But it wasn't new or a behavior of hers if every year the songbird she loves listening to flies north for the summer, or her environment didn't get an improvement she needed.

Im not really sure what you mean by what profession started a rumor?

Probably because I don't like to come right out & say "I'm too stupid to get what people mean." So my comments based on guesses, if not right, inspire further explanations & then I get it.
I'd somehow thought you were kind of complaining he'd taken your money for nothing.
But I too heard that new behavior is bad, so since today they acted more cute than ever before, we're off to the vet!

find her pushing the pellets around rearranging them. I think this is just better and I dont have to worry about her getting urine scald

Thanks so much for all the observations you shared about her with pellets, that's so valuable since I'm not as good as you at figuring out what to put under mine.
And for letting me know there's such a thing as urine scald. After a month of trying to intro my rats all that finally worked is letting them pull up the edge of the mattress pad to squeal & wrestle on the plastic all day, but I put a knit cover under them today. I heard soil or Yesterday's News are the 2 substrates that take up to a month to start to smell vs hours, but the latter turns to powder when wet & the problems I've had using the former for more than just a dig box is a whole other subject. I don't remember hearing walnut has odor/dust issues so I'm interested in submitting it for their approval. My 1st rat does the furniture rearranging with caps & even soil & pee rocks. Did you find there're any particular brands to avoid or favor or what type is yours?

I also wonder if she'd be a swimmer, have you had a chance to introduce her/them to a container of water to do pea fishing etc, to see how she reacts?

If not, you can add her favorite (at least waterproof enough to not disintegrate when lifted out later) treats that will sink to the bottom, increase the depth & width as gradually as needed, and add rocks she can't see under/behind so has to dive.