Diluting injectable baytril 10% for oral administration?

[TheFatRatGirl]

Hiya, after much trouble with the vets in my area I have contacted an old family friend with a bird shop and got hold of some baytril myself. The problem is, he injects it into his birds and while I've read that this type of baytril can be diluted to be given orally, I've not been able to find any more detailed information that is specific to rats. (I seen some info on pigeons and chameleons but nothing for rats). Does anyone have experience with this? I do have a nebuliser if it's easier to do this way? I also have 1ml syringes to administer orally.

I read that nebulising injectable Baytril is actually preferable (but that was on a Guinea pig forum) but there was no information on whether it needed to be diluted.

Really appreciate any help I can get with this. I know i've seen people on here who keep their own stash of Baytril so hope someone has had some experience with the type I can get hold of.

 

[lilspaz68]

the 10% baytril for pigeons is not a true injectable so cannot be nebulized BUT it can be given orally in food or mixed with syrup and given that way.

How much does your rat weigh? Once we have that I can give you undiluted doses, 50 mg/ml doses or 25 mg/ml doses and how to mix them up.

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

the 10% baytril for pigeons is not a true injectable so cannot be nebulized BUT it can be given orally in food or mixed with syrup and given that way.

How much does your rat weigh? Once we have that I can give you undiluted doses, 50 mg/ml doses or 25 mg/ml doses and how to mix them up.

Thank you so much! He's a big boy; 620g. The bottle says 1ml per 2 litres of drinking water for pigeons! I realize rats are different but gosh that sounds strong.

 

[lilspaz68]

They mix theirs to 0.05 mg/ml. Ours is 100 mg/ml undiluted. Each species has a different requirement

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

They mix theirs to 0.05 mg/ml. Ours is 100 mg/ml undiluted. Each species has a different requirement

That makes sense. How would I mix the appropriate amount for my 620g boy? Thanks.

 

[lilspaz68]

Ok hes a big lad, so if you pull up a dose undiluted and mix it in a strong tasty food his dose would be 0.09 ml twice a day

 

[CorbinDallasMyMan]

You can easily measure out the appropriate dose of the 100 mg/ml liquid with a needless syringe and then mix it in a spoon with a little bit of baby food or whatever treat your rats will readily accept.

I usually premix the liquid medicine with a flavored syrup and water. I mix 1ml of the Baytril with 1ml of water and 1ml of a flavored syrup (I use raspberry Torani). Because it has now been diluted from 1 ml to 3ml, you would multiply the dose amount by 3. My rats will generally lick it directly from the syringe.

Lilspaz is recommending 0.09ml so the diluted amount would be 0.09 x 3 = 0.27 ml.

Lilspaz, is 15 mg/ml your general recommended dose?

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

Thank you so much for the help. I really appreciate it. Only, I'm a little concerned because the dose the vet has prescribed Jarvis in the past has been only 0.01ml more than you're suggesting, but on the 2.5% solution. I was thinking it would be much less this time as it's 10%, but I have to admit - even though I'm a little embarrassed - that I'm not sure what the % actually indicates? The amount of enrofloxacin? Or is it all enrofloxacin? Sorry for being a pain! I never thought I'd have to 'prescribe' my own medication for my rats but the quality of vet care in my area has declined massively since I first started keeping them a little over ten years ago.

 

[CorbinDallasMyMan]

I'm not sure what the % actually indicates? The amount of enrofloxacin? Or is it all enrofloxacin?

2.5 % indicates that there are 25 milligrams of the active ingredient (enrofloxacin) in each milliliter of the liquid suspension (25 mg/ml). 10% means there are 100 mg of enro in each ml of the liquid suspension (100 mg/ml).

X mg/ml is the number of milligrams of the active ingredient in each milliliter of liquid. A higher number of mg/ml means that the the liquid medicine is more concentrated and more potent.

An easy way to imagine it is to think about the active ingredient like grains of sugar. Let's pretend that a grain of sugar is 1 milligram. If you put 25 grains of sugar in 1 milliliter of water, that solution will be 2.5% or 25 mg/ml. If you put 100 grains of sugar in 1 milliliter of water, that solution will be 10% or 100 mg/ml.

 

[lilspaz68]

You can easily measure out the appropriate dose of the 100 mg/ml liquid with a needless syringe and then mix it in a spoon with a little bit of baby food or whatever treat your rats will readily accept.

I usually premix the liquid medicine with a flavored syrup and water. I mix 1ml of the Baytril with 1ml of water and 1ml of a flavored syrup (I use raspberry Torani). Because it has now been diluted from 1 ml to 3ml, you would multiply the dose amount by 3. My rats will generally lick it directly from the syringe.

Lilspaz is recommending 0.09ml so the diluted amount would be 0.09 x 3 = 0.27 ml.

Lilspaz, is 15 mg/ml your general recommended dose?

On Real Rat Lovers Want to Know we suggest 15 mg/kg BID as a more effective dose. 10 mg/kg is the standard though.

 

[lilspaz68]

As for the former dosing of 0.1 ml of 2.5% (or 25 mg/ml) dosing. IF your rat weighed 620 grams at the time your vet was dosing at 4 mg/kg when standard is 10 mg/kg and I use 15 mg/kg. Your boy was being massively underdosed if he was the same weight

Do I dare ask how long you were told to treat him? 7 days? 10 days? 2 weeks?

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

Yep, that was his weight at the time. I was given four doses. 0.1ml of 2.5% once a day for four days. It didn’t work.

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

I asked if I could have doxycycline as well as I’d read a combination was good and the vet got a bit defensive and told me that what she had given me was fine. I think she felt like I was being rude and not respecting her professional opinion which I get, but I was trying to insist as politely as possible. She once asked me if one of my rats had thrown up which rang some alarm bells since they can’t actually do that...

 

[CorbinDallasMyMan]

I'd try a different vet in the future.

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

I'd try a different vet in the future.

This is the third vet I've tried. It's quite stressful, the feeling that no matter where I go I won't be getting the correct help or advice. I'm always being told something different from what I'm reading online. A few times I've been condescended to when I mention having read differently online. One vet said he doubted I'd read that spaying reduced future mammary tumours in 'proper, scientific papers'. Back in September, I had a rat with malocclusion. I took her to one vet who put her out to trim her teeth and nicked the inside of her mouth so that an abscess formed. I was given (what I now know to be an insufficient) dose of baytril. I asked for another antibiotic that I'd read was better at treating puss and was told, quite plainly, no. So I went to a second vet who injected her with inflacam and sent me on my way. The abscess popped the next day and turned into a huge, gaping hole in her neck. I went back to the first vet and waited for two hours before being sent away without being seen despite it being a walk-in clinic and despite it being their fault to start with. By the time I got her to a third, emergency vet (at about midnight) they put her to sleep. It was horrendous. I feel sick even writing about it.

One of my girls recently got a mammary lump and I took her to a fourth vet - recommended on a rat fb group. They seem much kinder and more invested in rats but they also agreed that spaying would make no difference once they remove her lump. I've read that it's worth it, so once again I'm concerned. I've pretty much exhausted vet options in my area at this point.

 

[lilspaz68]

Ok so a very minimum treatment for an active infection would be 2 weeks, with 3 weeks being better.

The 4th vet seems most promising, depending on the age of your girl. The younger the better for spays as the older they are the more likely they already possibly have tiny mammary tumours already growing.

The malocclusion issue almost sounds like they cracked a tooth root and it abscessed? Did they clip or burr the teeth when you had her done? Was she awake or lightly anesthetized?

 

[TheFatRatGirl]

Ok so a very minimum treatment for an active infection would be 2 weeks, with 3 weeks being better.

The 4th vet seems most promising, depending on the age of your girl. The younger the better for spays as the older they are the more likely they already possibly have tiny mammary tumours already growing.

The malocclusion issue almost sounds like they cracked a tooth root and it abscessed? Did they clip or burr the teeth when you had her done? Was she awake or lightly anesthetized?

Dolly (the girl with a mammary lump being removed on Tuesday) is only nine months old which is why I thought she might make a good candidate for spaying but to be honest, I'm so glad I've finally found a vet to agree to at least take the lump off in the first place. It's been growing so fast and three vets have already turned me away so I'm thinking at least I can have it removed and see what happens. It gives me a little time to keep searching for a vet that will spay if that is a possibility. This was her just a couple of months ago. She practically a baby still.

Penny (the girl that had the abscess) was anesthetized and a burr was used.

Most of the infections i've been prescribed Baytril for were URI's and I was given between 4 doses and a weeks worth of doses for different rats at different points. I also had a rescue girl who had lived alone her whole life and had some difficulty socializing with the group I introduced her to at first. She got a nasty cut on her stomach which quickly became infected. I was given five doses of baytril for that but luckily they also gave me an antiseptic honey topical treatment which must have been just the trick because after keeping it clean and treating it with that, the infection cleared and she healed up fine. That's her at the bottom of the pile. It's so lovely to see her as a happy part of the mischief. She was genuinely depressed when i got her, after eighteen months on her own. She just sort of led there despondently. Now she's active and social so I'm thrilled the honey treatment worked for her.

And then, since I seem to be on a picture sharing rampage; here's Jarvis (my 620g boy):

He was rehomed for 'aggression'. Apparently he left serious bite marks on the children at his previous home. He's not actually aggressive at all, though. He had part of a toe missing and felt tip pen on his tail when I got him. He used to scream if I got too close to his face as well when I was stroking him. I think it was a case of the children being rough with him and being left unsupervised because he was a really frightened boy when I got him but I just responded to his body language (e.g. giving him space when he puffed up or squeaked at me) and now he's a very happy, cuddly boy. When I get him out to play in my room he'll enjoy himself with his cagemate for a bit and then come and snuggle on my bed with me.

Sorry for the unwarranted introduction to some of my rats. I just love them so much aha.