Poor rat boy is bleeding from the face...

Hey guys. I'm new here and I'll put up an introduction post in the appropriate place later with pics of my little buddies, but right now I have a situation. I came here to see if anyone has ever seen this issue before and can tell me anything.

I've had pet rats before and right now we have 3 boys, all over a year and a half old.

One of them, Frenzy, had an episode a couple of weeks ago where in the middle of the night we heard sneezing and found his head covered in his own blood which he was frantically trying to clean up and more dripped from his nose. He was blowing blood bubbles, breathing poorly, and there was blood everywhere like a rat massacre happened. I'm not talking about porphyrin either. I know the difference. This was blood. He was active and lively so I wasn't sure if he just cut his nose or something, and over the next couple of hours it stopped and his room mates Rattrap and Rumble-butt not only cleaned him up fully, but formed a bed under him so he could sleep great till the next day. That next day he seemed 100% better.

Last night I found him in even worse shape. Blood all over the cage, in their litter box, on the walls around the cage, on the desk near it, all over his head, and this time the other 2 weren't even trying to help. Rattrap was lying on the bottom in the litter where no rat ever lays, looking super depressed, while Rumble-B paced back and forth on the top shelf freaking out. Frenzy ended up giving up trying to work on the blood running from his nose and just flopped over on his side until he passed out, barely taking short sharp breaths. I was sure that was it for him... But nope.

He's generally fine again today, at least considering his condition last night, and we had a heck of a clean up job to do, but he does still seem a bit weak and sad. His pals got him cleaned up again too. I'm pretty sure he won't make it through the next attack though.

I know "Take him to the vet!" but here's the thing... And yeah, I know it will sound insensitive to some folks but this is how I'm thinking. These guys are probably 3/4th through their lives, and they were rescues from a place that sells them as feeders. I know I have done these guys right and given them a home with lots of love, but if I am going to have pet rats, I can't allow a little dude that cost one dollar and will likely not live that much longer to cost my family a few hundred dollars, potentially for nothing. He very well may not be savable, and the only vet that sees rats anywhere near me is a long drive away. I called them and they said just to see him would be $65, then lots more gets piled on for any shots, x-rays, whatever. I can't do it.

I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this happen to a pet rat, and found out what is is. If he's going to suffer for a while, I might drop the money to take him and have him put to sleep. If it's something that someone knows about that is often fixed with just a cheap shot from the doc, I might do that. I don't want to go in for what is most likely a ton of money for possibly extending his life a few months at best though.

Pics attached of the blood on the desk, picture frame, and printer, and of Frenzy now.

unicron9 said:

Hey guys. I'm new here and I'll put up an introduction post in the appropriate place later with pics of my little buddies, but right now I have a situation. I came here to see if anyone has ever seen this issue before and can tell me anything.

I've had pet rats before and right now we have 3 boys, all over a year and a half old.

One of them, Frenzy, had an episode a couple of weeks ago where in the middle of the night we heard sneezing and found his head covered in his own blood which he was frantically trying to clean up and more dripped from his nose. He was blowing blood bubbles, breathing poorly, and there was blood everywhere like a rat massacre happened. I'm not talking about porphyrin either. I know the difference. This was blood. He was active and lively so I wasn't sure if he just cut his nose or something, and over the next couple of hours it stopped and his room mates Rattrap and Rumble-butt not only cleaned him up fully, but formed a bed under him so he could sleep great till the next day. That next day he seemed 100% better.

Last night I found him in even worse shape. Blood all over the cage, in their litter box, on the walls around the cage, on the desk near it, all over his head, and this time the other 2 weren't even trying to help. Rattrap was lying on the bottom in the litter where no rat ever lays, looking super depressed, while Rumble-B paced back and forth on the top shelf freaking out. Frenzy ended up giving up trying to work on the blood running from his nose and just flopped over on his side until he passed out, barely taking short sharp breaths. I was sure that was it for him... But nope.

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This sounds very, very serious. I had a rat with a brain tumor that experienced something similar. The vet operated and found a tumour filling almost his entire skull. It was horrendous, he would have been in so much pain. They asked if I wanted him brought back around so I could say goodbye but I had to give the go ahead to euthanize him while he was still under; it would have been selfish and grossly inhumane otherwise.

unicron9 said:

I know "Take him to the vet!" but here's the thing... And yeah, I know it will sound insensitive to some folks but this is how I'm thinking. These guys are probably 3/4th through their lives, and they were rescues from a place that sells them as feeders. I know I have done these guys right and given them a home with lots of love, but if I am going to have pet rats, I can't allow a little dude that cost one dollar and will likely not live that much longer to cost my family a few hundred dollars, potentially for nothing. He very well may not be savable, and the only vet that sees rats anywhere near me is a long drive away. I called them and they said just to see him would be $65, then lots more gets piled on for any shots, x-rays, whatever. I can't do it.

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You're right, it does sound insensitive. If I rehomed a dog free from Gumtree/Craigslist I wouldn't deny him medical treatment becuase he's 'not worth any money'. The salient facts are as follows; you brought an animal into your home which makes it your responsibility; said animal is suffering severely and is entirely at your mercy; because you acquired the animal for $1 you have decided it is fair for that animal to continue to suffer. The kindest way to save yourself money is to at least have him euthanised. If you don't want to 'fork out' to manage his pain in any other way then that's the only humane option left in my opinion.

TheFatRatGirl said:

You're right, it does sound insensitive. If I rehomed a dog free from Gumtree/Craigslist I wouldn't deny him medical treatment becuase he's 'not worth any money'. The salient facts are as follows; you brought an animal into your home which makes it your responsibility; said animal is suffering severely and is entirely at your mercy; because you acquired the animal for $1 you have decided it is fair for that animal to continue to suffer. The kindest way to save yourself money is to at least have him euthanised. If you don't want to 'fork out' to manage his pain in any other way then that's the only humane option left in my opinion.

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I was hoping for a more realistic and less judgmental point of view. I wasn't just saying the rat cost me $1 so screw his suffering. I was saying that when we saved these from being terrified and eaten by a large snake or lizard as babies- when we decided to give them years in a loving home where they are played with and cuddled every single day instead of that sad fate, we knew that we didn't make the kind of money were we could take them to the vet when they get older each time they get sick. Not for hundreds of dollars in tests and treatment.
And as much as I love my rats, and always have thought rats are great pets up there with dogs and cats, they live 2 or 3 years if not less while dogs and cats live 15-25 years. Those factors do make some financial decisions more logical than others. If my year and a half old dog was bleeding from the nose I would get him to a vet whether he was a rescue or cost me $300 because he would likely be a beloved family member for many years to come.
I did say if someone has seen this before and it can likely be fixed with a shot, i'll take him to a vet, or if he is terminal and going to suffer I will have him put to sleep. I can't do hundreds of dollars in tests though.

Going by your reasoning, I should have let them be eaten by a snake and I'm a bad person for saving them.

unicron9 said:

I was hoping for a more realistic and less judgmental point of view. I wasn't just saying the rat cost me $1 so screw his suffering. I was saying that when we saved these from being terrified and eaten by a large snake or lizard as babies- when we decided to give them years in a loving home where they are played with and cuddled every single day instead of that sad fate, we knew that we didn't make the kind of money were we could take them to the vet when they get older each time they get sick. Not for hundreds of dollars in tests and treatment.
And as much as I love my rats, and always have thought rats are great pets up there with dogs and cats, they live 2 or 3 years if not less while dogs and cats live 15-25 years. Those factors do make some financial decisions more logical than others. If my year and a half old dog was bleeding from the nose I would get him to a vet whether he was a rescue or cost me $300 because he would likely be a beloved family member for many years to come.
I did say if someone has seen this before and it can likely be fixed with a shot, i'll take him to a vet, or if he is terminal and going to suffer I will have him put to sleep. I can't do hundreds of dollars in tests though.

Going by your reasoning, I should have let them be eaten by a snake and I'm a bad person for saving them.

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You're not a bad person for saving them, and I never suggested that were the case. I'm not attempting to be judgmental either; you asked if anyone had experienced something similar, and I have. A veterinarian told me how much agony my rat was in which is what I am trying to convey. This has happened twice before, so your rat has suffered for a length of time already. I am from a low-income background and am now a student so I know what it means to not have spare money to throw around. I know that vet bills add stress to an already stressful living situation. None of this changes the fact that most rats will need to visit a vet at one point in their life, and so having a small amount of savings put aside never hurts. I also didn't suggest that you should fork out hundred of pounds to fix the rat's condition.

unicron9 said:

I did say if someone has seen this before and it can likely be fixed with a shot, i'll take him to a vet, or if he is terminal and going to suffer I will have him put to sleep.

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Often times, neither of these are the case. Illnesses common to rats are very rarely treatable through shots but are also rarely terminal. This isn't the case here, but if one of your other rats developed a respiratory problem they'd need some vet treatment.

This forum doesn't really condone discussions on live feeding so I can't really go into the moral conflict between a short life and quick death vs a long life but long drawn out death here.

My response was not meant as an attack, but do consider that this is a forum specific to rats and so their well-being is always the main thing on my mind when posting here.

TheFatRatGirl said:

You're not a bad person for saving them, and I never suggested that were the case. I'm not attempting to be judgmental either; you asked if anyone had experienced something similar, and I have. A veterinarian told me how much agony my rat was in which is what I am trying to convey. This has happened twice before, so your rat has suffered for a length of time already. I am from a low-income background and am now a student so I know what it means to not have spare money to throw around. I know that vet bills add stress to an already stressful living situation. None of this changes the fact that most rats will need to visit a vet at one point in their life, and so having a small amount of savings put aside never hurts. I also didn't suggest that you should fork out hundred of pounds to fix the rat's condition.



Often times, neither of these are the case. Illnesses common to rats are very rarely treatable through shots but are also rarely terminal. This isn't the case here, but if one of your other rats developed a respiratory problem they'd need some vet treatment.

This forum doesn't really condone discussions on live feeding so I can't really go into the moral conflict between a short life and quick death vs a long life but long drawn out death here.

My response was not meant as an attack, but do consider that this is a forum specific to rats and so their well-being is always the main thing on my mind when posting here.

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I get what you're saying. It just sounded a bit judgmental to me, partly because I DO care a lot about these guys so I am probably a little defensive about what I feel is reasonable as far as dealing with this problem. Some could take a moral high ground stance against "ending the suffering" of any living thing that can still have more happy time in this world too. If a friend had cancer and was suffering on and off, would you kill them to end their suffering? Debatable I suppose, but probably not.
Right now frenzy seems to be having much more happy time with his pals and my family than the 2 brief instances of bleeding and hurting that lasted just a few hours in the last 2 weeks.

I came here for info so I can better make a decision on what to do about this, but I had to be honest about where I stand with potentially spending a small fortune on the issue too.
There are times when I can afford to drop a chunk of money on something like this but this is not one of those months. My family is in the middle of trying to finalize buying a home, and we are already scraping and borrowing to get the last of the money together for that. Therefore, I will do what I need to within reason, but please don't judge me if what I see as within reason is different from your viewpoint.

unicron9 said:

I was hoping for a more realistic and less judgmental point of view. I wasn't just saying the rat cost me $1 so screw his suffering. I was saying that when we saved these from being terrified and eaten by a large snake or lizard as babies- when we decided to give them years in a loving home where they are played with and cuddled every single day instead of that sad fate, we knew that we didn't make the kind of money were we could take them to the vet when they get older each time they get sick. Not for hundreds of dollars in tests and treatment.
And as much as I love my rats, and always have thought rats are great pets up there with dogs and cats, they live 2 or 3 years if not less while dogs and cats live 15-25 years. Those factors do make some financial decisions more logical than others. If my year and a half old dog was bleeding from the nose I would get him to a vet whether he was a rescue or cost me $300 because he would likely be a beloved family member for many years to come.
I did say if someone has seen this before and it can likely be fixed with a shot, i'll take him to a vet, or if he is terminal and going to suffer I will have him put to sleep. I can't do hundreds of dollars in tests though.

Going by your reasoning, I should have let them be eaten by a snake and I'm a bad person for saving them.

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Ok, ok, so I can see both points of view, bit you did come across as kind of cold-hearted. But, as a realist, and one who has had many many fosters in my care, I can understand what you were trying to say, and I get it. What you meant was...there comes a time when you have to make a decision, whether to help at any and all costs, or let him be relieved of his pain and suffering. With humans there is another course to take... usually referred to as helping him maintain a decent quality of life and remain comfortable. If you can not do that, and helping him at all costs is not always the best way to go anyway, as in this case I'm afraid, then relieving him of his suffering is the only thing left. This is what you do... Bring him to a vet to have him determine if his condition is causing him distress, and likely it is. Then decide if there's a better than not chance of helping him return to a normal quality of life, and in his case, it's not likely, would cost a lot of money, and only be for a short time since he is already old. That leaves only one course to take, which is to PTS, the only humane action you can take. Letting him live out his days is not a good plan as he already had 2 episodes, has likely lost a lot of blood, and wouldn't survive another episode. So I understand where you are coming from, and now you understand where you are going to. The vet. Immediately.

TheFatRatGirl said:

You're not a bad person for saving them, and I never suggested that were the case. I'm not attempting to be judgmental either; you asked if anyone had experienced something similar, and I have. A veterinarian told me how much agony my rat was in which is what I am trying to convey. This has happened twice before, so your rat has suffered for a length of time already. I am from a low-income background and am now a student so I know what it means to not have spare money to throw around. I know that vet bills add stress to an already stressful living situation. None of this changes the fact that most rats will need to visit a vet at one point in their life, and so having a small amount of savings put aside never hurts. I also didn't suggest that you should fork out hundred of pounds to fix the rat's condition.



Often times, neither of these are the case. Illnesses common to rats are very rarely treatable through shots but are also rarely terminal. This isn't the case here, but if one of your other rats developed a respiratory problem they'd need some vet treatment.

This forum doesn't really condone discussions on live feeding so I can't really go into the moral conflict between a short life and quick death vs a long life but long drawn out death here.

My response was not meant as an attack, but do consider that this is a forum specific to rats and so their well-being is always the main thing on my mind when posting here.

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If you had something similar to this happen before, what was it then?

Rocket99 said:

If you had something similar to this happen before, what was it then?

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As mentioned in my first comment; a brain tumor filling most of the skull.

Oh, and BTW, your rat could have a Zymbal's infection. Sounds likely, but without the outwardly symptoms you usually see. A vet can tell you more, and if it is Zymbal's he can PTS immediately.

If you are thinking of putting you rat to sleep please discuss it with your vet prior and make sure it is done correctly as most vets do not know how to do this
https://www.ratshackforum.com/threads/rats-and-euthanasia.7652/

Is the air really dry?

Rocket99 said:

Ok, ok, so I can see both points of view, bit you did come across as kind of cold-hearted. But, as a realist, and one who has had many many fosters in my care, I can understand what you were trying to say, and I get it. What you meant was...there comes a time when you have to make a decision, whether to help at any and all costs, or let him be relieved of his pain and suffering. With humans there is another course to take... usually referred to as helping him maintain a decent quality of life and remain comfortable. If you can not do that, and helping him at all costs is not always the best way to go anyway, as in this case I'm afraid, then relieving him of his suffering is the only thing left. This is what you do... Bring him to a vet to have him determine if his condition is causing him distress, and likely it is. Then decide if there's a better than not chance of helping him return to a normal quality of life, and in his case, it's not likely, would cost a lot of money, and only be for a short time since he is already old. That leaves only one course to take, which is to PTS, the only humane action you can take. Letting him live out his days is not a good plan as he already had 2 episodes, has likely lost a lot of blood, and wouldn't survive another episode. So I understand where you are coming from, and now you understand where you are going to. The vet. Immediately.

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To some I guess I would be considered cold-hearted. I'm fine with that, because I know some people think hunters are wrong to kill even if they eat what they kill, some won't even eat meat because "the poor animals", some would sooner let their homes be infested with mice if humane traps don't work rather than use poison or snap traps, and some would even say it's awful to kill a spider or roach with bug spray. I say the world is what it is, and there are bigger issues to worry about than things like people eating dogs and cats in China, or a local business breeding adorable fancy and dumbo rats to feed to reptiles. I don't approve of either of those last two things, and I chose to buy from the feeder store to give a few buddies a chance at life instead of buying from a pet store again, but I'm not going to say a single negative judgmental thing to the feeder breeder just like I wouldn't condemn the hunter or the guy that stomps spiders into mush paste.

A female pet rat I had that lived for 4 and a half years in my late teens/early 20s was possibly the best pet I ever had. No top on her aquarium home because she came and went as she pleased, only ever going to her aquarium to poop or sleep. Spent most of her time in my shirt with her head poking out watching TV and playing video games with me and my friends, came when called, and was just an awesome friend.
Point of that is, I know how under-rated rats are, how loving and social they are, and I care about the 3 boys I have now, yet I'm not under any delusion of them being more of a grand species of animal than they are. They are still just rats, which are bred and fed to other animals, snapped in traps, experimented on by scientists, and have pretty short life spans. If one of mine is near his time anyway and trying to get his health issue fixed would likely cause my attempt to secure the permanent home for my family I'm in the middle of acquiring, I'm looking at the situation as it is. There are other family priorities that come before my sick older pet rat, and not being in a hurry to take him to a vet to get tests, medications, and surgeries if it could set back or ruin those priorities doesn't make me feel too terrible.

That said, I will most likely take him to the vet to be put down tomorrow if at all affordable, and the thought of losing him hurts pretty bad.

Rocket99 said:

Oh, and BTW, your rat could have a Zymbal's infection. Sounds likely, but without the outwardly symptoms you usually see. A vet can tell you more, and if it is Zymbal's he can PTS immediately.

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Making sure I know what that means... PTS is Put To Sleep in this case, right? Not Post Traumatic Stress or Pork Tomato Soup?

SQ said:

Is the air really dry?

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No not particularly. All 3 have been in the same cage and conditions their whole lives with no problems.

unicron9 said:

To some I guess I would be considered cold-hearted. I'm fine with that, because I know some people think hunters are wrong to kill even if they eat what they kill, some won't even eat meat because "the poor animals", some would sooner let their homes be infested with mice if humane traps don't work rather than use poison or snap traps, and some would even say it's awful to kill a spider or roach with bug spray. I say the world is what it is, and there are bigger issues to worry about than things like people eating dogs and cats in China, or a local business breeding adorable fancy and dumbo rats to feed to reptiles. I don't approve of either of those last two things, and I chose to buy from the feeder store to give a few buddies a chance at life instead of buying from a pet store again, but I'm not going to say a single negative judgmental thing to the feeder breeder just like I wouldn't condemn the hunter or the guy that stomps spiders into mush paste.

A female pet rat I had that lived for 4 and a half years in my late teens/early 20s was possibly the best pet I ever had. No top on her aquarium home because she came and went as she pleased, only ever going to her aquarium to poop or sleep. Spent most of her time in my shirt with her head poking out watching TV and playing video games with me and my friends, came when called, and was just an awesome friend.
Point of that is, I know how under-rated rats are, how loving and social they are, and I care about the 3 boys I have now, yet I'm not under any delusion of them being more of a grand species of animal than they are. They are still just rats, which are bred and fed to other animals, snapped in traps, experimented on by scientists, and have pretty short life spans. If one of mine is near his time anyway and trying to get his health issue fixed would likely cause my attempt to secure the permanent home for my family I'm in the middle of acquiring, I'm looking at the situation as it is. There are other family priorities that come before my sick older pet rat, and not being in a hurry to take him to a vet to get tests, medications, and surgeries if it could set back or ruin those priorities doesn't make me feel too terrible.

That said, I will most likely take him to the vet to be put down tomorrow if at all affordable, and the thought of losing him hurts pretty bad.



Making sure I know what that means... PTS is Put To Sleep in this case, right? Not Post Traumatic Stress or Pork Tomato Soup?

No not particularly. All 3 have been in the same cage and conditions their whole lives with no problems.

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I sympathize with you, and I DO side with you here. What treatment will it cost him. Will surgery be needed? Well how long will his recovery be, will he be stressed from handling to give him medicine etc. If he is already nearing the natural end of his life are those stressors worth it?

Wolfgirl said:

I sympathize with you, and I DO side with you here. What treatment will it cost him. Will surgery be needed? Well how long will his recovery be, will he be stressed from handling to give him medicine etc. If he is already nearing the natural end of his life are those stressors worth it?

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Thank you. That means a lot to me. It really is painful seeing one of my little buddies dying, especially in a gruesome way like this. I'd rather not feel guilty about it too.

unicron9 said:

To some I guess I would be considered cold-hearted. I'm fine with that, because I know some people think hunters are wrong to kill even if they eat what they kill, some won't even eat meat because "the poor animals", some would sooner let their homes be infested with mice if humane traps don't work rather than use poison or snap traps, and some would even say it's awful to kill a spider or roach with bug spray. I say the world is what it is, and there are bigger issues to worry about than things like people eating dogs and cats in China, or a local business breeding adorable fancy and dumbo rats to feed to reptiles. I don't approve of either of those last two things, and I chose to buy from the feeder store to give a few buddies a chance at life instead of buying from a pet store again, but I'm not going to say a single negative judgmental thing to the feeder breeder just like I wouldn't condemn the hunter or the guy that stomps spiders into mush paste.

That said, I will most likely take him to the vet to be put down tomorrow if at all affordable, and the thought of losing him hurts pretty bad.

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First off, I'd like to say I'm sorry you're going through this. This is an incredibly gruesome way to go and very stressful for everyone involved.

However, what you did say came off as cold-hearted before, whether it was intentional or not. I do not intend to sound judgmental, but I probably will, because I can't side with "he's old, unsavable, so I'll just let him pass away on his own." Life is life, whether you bring your eating habits or hobbies into it. In an ideal world, no human or their companion animals would ever have to suffer or slowly die because "well, they're old anyways and probably unsavable." I come from a low-income situation, but I do do my best to have a little fund set aside for my rats. I attend college, can't work due to a physical disability, and live with my grandma, so I understand that having money set aside is not always an option.

However, if I see my rat is suffering, I will do my best to heal their injury or illness (with a vet's help) or to euthanize them, even if that sets me back a bit. However, if treating my rats became such a setback financially that I would be in loads of debt, I would find them a financially stable and rat responsible home so that they could be cared for.

A good vet will be willing to work with you financially and try to do what's the best for the animal without making you spend a small fortune. When I had to euthanize my dog due to a brain tumor, the vet said there were options to help him, but in the end, he would still only have the same amount of time as if we left him untreated.

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree with you, but I will leave it at that. Anyways, good luck to you and your ratties. I hope everything works out for you. Again, I'm sorry you're going through this, as it never is and never will be not-stressful or painful. I just lost one of my boys recently.

unicron9 said:

Making sure I know what that means... PTS is Put To Sleep in this case, right? Not Post Traumatic Stress or Pork Tomato Soup?

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Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, so I will chime in. yes, PTS means "put to sleep." Another term for euthanizing or humanely ending your animal's life.

Wolfgirl said:

I sympathize with you, and I DO side with you here. What treatment will it cost him. Will surgery be needed? Well how long will his recovery be, will he be stressed from handling to give him medicine etc. If he is already nearing the natural end of his life are those stressors worth it?

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A good vet would be extremely willing to discuss quality of life with you and your pet. I've had those amazing vets willing to answer those questions and give you honest, true answers, without worrying about the money. Just like my last post (apologies for double posting) I had a vet tell me that I could do all of this chemotherapy for my dog and get him an MRI and give him loads of medication, but in the end, dogs who had that same type of brain tumor often didn't respond well to those sorts of treatment. That vet recommended my the best option for my dog at that point was euthanasia.

ViciousCurse said:

First off, I'd like to say I'm sorry you're going through this. This is an incredibly gruesome way to go and very stressful for everyone involved.

However, what you did say came off as cold-hearted before, whether it was intentional or not. I do not intend to sound judgmental, but I probably will, because I can't side with "he's old, unsavable, so I'll just let him pass away on his own." Life is life, whether you bring your eating habits or hobbies into it. In an ideal world, no human or their companion animals would ever have to suffer or slowly die because "well, they're old anyways and probably unsavable." I come from a low-income situation, but I do do my best to have a little fund set aside for my rats. I attend college, can't work due to a physical disability, and live with my grandma, so I understand that having money set aside is not always an option.

However, if I see my rat is suffering, I will do my best to heal their injury or illness (with a vet's help) or to euthanize them, even if that sets me back a bit. However, if treating my rats became such a setback financially that I would be in loads of debt, I would find them a financially stable and rat responsible home so that they could be cared for.

A good vet will be willing to work with you financially and try to do what's the best for the animal without making you spend a small fortune. When I had to euthanize my dog due to a brain tumor, the vet said there were options to help him, but in the end, he would still only have the same amount of time as if we left him untreated.

I understand where you're coming from but I disagree with you, but I will leave it at that. Anyways, good luck to you and your ratties. I hope everything works out for you. Again, I'm sorry you're going through this, as it never is and never will be not-stressful or painful. I just lost one of my boys recently.



Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, so I will chime in. yes, PTS means "put to sleep." Another term for euthanizing or humanely ending your animal's life.

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You say you get where I am coming from but almost everything else you said tells me that's not the case at all. In my first "cold-hearted" post, I said that I can't afford to take my sick old rat to the vet to get tests, scans, and treatment, then right after that I explained that I was looking for info about the issue because if he is going to suffer for a while I will probably go get him put to sleep. That's pretty much exactly what you said I should be doing in my situation as the "right thing to do". I sure didn't say "He's old, unsavable, so i'll let him suffer to death on his own". So yeah, telling me you think what I said was indeed cold and you can't agree with my plan to just let my rat suffer to death when that's not even what I said, then telling me how you'd handle it in a humane way that is ironically exactly what I have said more than once I will likely be doing, does come off as judgmental and a little bit morally superior. The situation is indeed stressing me out bad enough to make that kind of thing not real helpful right now.

If you have good vets near you, that's great. I called the 3 within 30 minutes of my home and only one would see rats. I asked when I could speak to the doctor or have him call me back and the lady said he doesn't do that, and just taking the rat in to see the vet will be $65, plus whatever additional charges there are for anything else he does. That's how much my local vets care apparently.
To go with that, not that I should even further explain my financial situation to defend myself for no reason, but I just had to borrow $400 from my dad to have the last bit needed to pay the $10k closing and down payment to buy the house I am in to secure my home for my wife, 3 kids, and myself. I have just enough for us to live off until my next pay day almost 2 weeks from now. My beloved rat doesn't come before my human family.
I can't even imagine what my dad would say if I cancelled this home purchase and told him "well one of my old sick rats was dying so I had to take him to the vet and spend a few hundred to extend his life a little", yet I am probably going to make groceries a little tight for the next 2 weeks to have Frenzy put to sleep. I'm not sure what more should be expected of me.

My first instinct before posting in a rat forum was to not be so honest and straight-forward because I'd likely get a bit of flak if I wasn't willing to break my family to save my pet rat. I should probably listen to my instincts more.

Ok so let's get back to Frenzy's situation and figure out what's possibly happening to him and how you could potentially help him at home if at all.
Start with holding his sides to your ears and listen for rough, ctackly, fluid filled breathing. If you hear that to have a serious respiratory infection going on which will need antibiotics. You might have something that could be used in your cupboard or even order online.
If his lungs seem clear, check his teeth to make sure the incisors are straight across or are growing crooked (a rat who cuts his tongue or mouth Will bleed like crazy.
If it's dry in your home he may be getting blood vessels bursting in his nose (seen that before.... Blood everywhere).
In his case if he's active and alert, eating, pooping, drinking well between episodes I would advise adding dark leafy greens to his diet as he probably needs vitamin K (helps with clotting) and iron (helps prevent anemia, after all this blood loss.

Look up foods with lots of iron and vitamin K and go from there. He may have clotting issues and his diet might need to change to support him better.

What Lilspaz68 said!
Dark leafy greens
baby kale and broccoli contain both vit K and iron, and pumpkin seeds contain iron. These foods are safe and healthy for rats and they like them.

When choosing other foods as suggested by Lilspaz68 check the forbidden foods list
(see the Reference Thread re diet and https://www.ratshackforum.com/threads/food-dos-and-donts.22782/#post-343892 )

lilspaz68 said:

Ok so let's get back to Frenzy's situation and figure out what's possibly happening to him and how you could potentially help him at home if at all.
Start with holding his sides to your ears and listen for rough, ctackly, fluid filled breathing. If you hear that to have a serious respiratory infection going on which will need antibiotics. You might have something that could be used in your cupboard or even order online.
If his lungs seem clear, check his teeth to make sure the incisors are straight across or are growing crooked (a rat who cuts his tongue or mouth Will bleed like crazy.
If it's dry in your home he may be getting blood vessels bursting in his nose (seen that before.... Blood everywhere).
In his case if he's active and alert, eating, pooping, drinking well between episodes I would advise adding dark leafy greens to his diet as he probably needs vitamin K (helps with clotting) and iron (helps prevent anemia, after all this blood loss.

Look up foods with lots of iron and vitamin K and go from there. He may have clotting issues and his diet might need to change to support him better.

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A very helpful informative post. Thank you.
I do feed them lima beans, corn, peas, and carrots often, as well as the occasional sweet potatoes and chicken as a special treat. I give them chicken bones every few weeks to file their teeth down with too. I'll try broccoli, but any other specific dark leafy greens you'd suggest?

Though their cage isn't in an especially dry place, I did move it to the other side of the living room a couple of months ago so they are just a few feet away from one of the AC vents. It's aimed away from them but that did just occur to me as a possible source of dryer air in their area.

And as I have mentioned before, he is very alert and seems normal when his face isn't dripping blood. That's part of why I really don't want to go pay someone over $100 to kill him. He's eating great, plays, gives me rat lick smooches, hops onto my shoulder the minute I open his cage, poops... All the usual Frenzy stuff. He looked a little weak the day after that last bloody episode, but otherwise, totally normal.

I should also mention both times this bloody thing happened was right after I gave them peas, and Frenzy has this weird thing where he thinks he has to de-skin every single pea before eating the inside while Rumble goes in behind him and eats up the skins. Rattrap ignores all that dumb stuff and inhales peas like a Pac-man vacuum cleaner.
The way he eats peas makes me wonder if indeed those long bottom teeth are cutting the top of his mouth. Going to only give him rat brick for a while.