Aggressive rat, finding a cagemate?

lilspaz68 said:

Ok good. I was worried it was a spinal injury but this sounds like a behavior. What signs of aggression are there? Puffed up fur? Digging with front paws?rubbing, chattering teeth? When you were bitten before was it a hard deep chomp or a slashy bite like he was scared then ran away?
With the biting of the toes of your older rat was it through the bars, or through a ramp in the cage? Did they ever fight and ratball or did they just box and mirror each other standing up? Trying to determine if a neuter is really necessary with my questions.

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So the toe biting was my fault entirely. I was away from home and I apparently did not secure the part of the 2 story critter nation hole where the ladder connects them. I blocked it off, but my rat had found a way to move the object that wasn't heavy enough. Aries (The rat I have now) would climb up the bars to go see my Quavo (may he rest in peace </3) and I think that's how it happened. I was actually away at the time picking up food, my roommate had called me and told me Quavo had screamed and there was blood everywhere. I went to the vet immediately and got an antiseptic spray. While Quavo was still alive, Aries would still climb up to where the hole used to be, looking for a way to interact with Quavo. But I never let them interact after that because that's when Quavo's health started declining.

When I adopted them, they both had bite records. With Quavo, they said someone returned him because he groomed the others too hard? or didn't play nice? Aries I'm not so sure.

Aries seems kind of sweet now, he's always coming up and begging for attention I guess I am still just very nervous and I won't be in the playpen without a full getup of layered clothes. When I first got him and was taking him for his first vet visit, I went slowly to reach for him and he bit me so hard blood sprayed everywhere and I have a scar now.

I ended up getting thick gloves last night. He is a red-eyed rat, so I heard they have worse sight? While giving him a piece of fruit he seemed to have an easier time seeing my hand versus the fruit, and instead of lunging straight at me (whether to bite me or out of excitement for the treat, I don't really know because I get so frightened because he moves so quickly) he definitely differentiated easier.

I'm honestly not sure on the puffed up fur. I am concerned because he looks puffy to me...but he's always looked like this. I don't know if it's natural or not. When I take him out to play in the playpen he comfort grooms himself and he chatters a bit. Other than that in the cage I think he bites because he's used to us giving him treats. Maybe he can't see?

lilspaz68 said:

Ok good. I was worried it was a spinal injury but this sounds like a behavior. What signs of aggression are there? Puffed up fur? Digging with front paws?rubbing, chattering teeth? When you were bitten before was it a hard deep chomp or a slashy bite like he was scared then ran away?
With the biting of the toes of your older rat was it through the bars, or through a ramp in the cage? Did they ever fight and ratball or did they just box and mirror each other standing up? Trying to determine if a neuter is really necessary with my questions.

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Also I have checked craigslist but I am not getting replies, the last listing was 13 days ago for two boys but sadly there was no number and they will not respond to my email I sent out. There was another listing for feeder rats.

Ok chattering (unless it's bruxxing) is a hormonal thing. I think to play it safe for you and any new rats get him neutered first. Always offer the back.of your hand to a rat you are uncertain with, it's harder for them to bite/grip. Can you get a video?

lilspaz68 said:

Ok chattering (unless it's bruxxing) is a hormonal thing. I think to play it safe for you and any new rats get him neutered first. Always offer the back.of your hand to a rat you are uncertain with, it's harder for them to bite/grip. Can you get a video?

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A video of? The tail biting? how puffy he is? How CUTE he is? I'll do that soon!

ALL of the above!
Try to get a video of how he interacts and behaves with you. Something that will show how his body is, his posture, and behavior.
It's so hard when they're so cute, and you just want to cuddle them, but don't understand why they are acting a fool, huh? Believe me, I know. As do many, many people on this forum. LOL

lilspaz68 said:

Ok chattering (unless it's bruxxing) is a hormonal thing. I think to play it safe for you and any new rats get him neutered first. Always offer the back.of your hand to a rat you are uncertain with, it's harder for them to bite/grip. Can you get a video?

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Dena said:

ALL of the above!
Try to get a video of how he interacts and behaves with you. Something that will show how his body is, his posture, and behavior.
It's so hard when they're so cute, and you just want to cuddle them, but don't understand why they are acting a fool, huh? Believe me, I know. As do many, many people on this forum. LOL

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Sorry I completely forgot to use the back of my hand. D:
First video shows a little bit of his cage setup and behavior toward me, as well as how cute he is. Also, I hope you can hear me but the bottom is barren because he refuses to go down there because he is a scaredy cat.

1)

Second video shows the tail chasing better.

2)

Omg he's precious! To me he seems very curious and begging for attention. The tail thing also looks like he's catching it out of the corner of his eye and is trying to catch it. But then again, I have never had a rat do that. He doesn't seem overly aggressive, he just doesn't seem to know boundaries. I could be very wrong there too. But the bites seem like he's trying to figure out what you have for him. He did seem to lunge forward to bite your glove though. I'd definitely try to avoid petting his shoulders and rump for now. And no quick movements toward him. If he bites, make a squeak noise at him and move away. But if he bites down, don't jerk away from him. I saw a thread where Lilspaz said if the chomp down, and won't let go, to blow a quick burst up their nose, and they should let go. If he bites you, wash it and ibuprofen immediately. Ice packs can help too.

Dena said:

Omg he's precious! To me he seems very curious and begging for attention. The tail thing also looks like he's catching it out of the corner of his eye and is trying to catch it. But then again, I have never had a rat do that. He doesn't seem overly aggressive, he just doesn't seem to know boundaries. I could be very wrong there too. But the bites seem like he's trying to figure out what you have for him. He did seem to lunge forward to bite your glove though. I'd definitely try to avoid petting his shoulders and rump for now. And no quick movements toward him. If he bites, make a squeak noise at him and move away. But if he bites down, don't jerk away from him. I saw a thread where Lilspaz said if the chomp down, and won't let go, to blow a quick burst up their nose, and they should let go. If he bites you, wash it and ibuprofen immediately. Ice packs can help too.

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So should I just toughen up and not use gloves or keep them on? He has to get used to me and my scent I know but when I think about how badly he bit me I get scared. But you're right, he does seem like he's begging for attention and I want to play it's just a whole struggle to get him out. I sent my boyfriend (co-owner and roommate) to get a tissue box as per joinrats.com but it wasn't the right one.

I can't tell you NOT to use gloves. That's your comfort zone. I can tell you that oftentimes rats will try to "help you" to get things off your body that they think doesn't belong there (bandaids, rings, moles, scabs (ick), even fingernails). That's why it's important to let them know boundaries by eeping at them when they put their teeth on you in an unacceptable way. Don't get bites confused with nibbles, and grooming (which I'm sure you won't). They will nibble and "groom" you with their mouth as well. Sometimes they will even "pull" you into their nest with their teeth. But that won't be a chomp and shouldn't hurt. They will kinda put their mouth on you in a gentle way and pull at you in the direction they want you to go. But there's usually no lunging, or fur standing up. When their fur stands up, it looks like they stuck their finger in a light socket. They will look all bristly. They do this when they are sick, cold, and agitated.

As for the tissue box, I'd go to the dollar store, and buy nonscented, no lotion tissues. Then let him pull them out of the box and watch him have fun!

Dena said:

I can't tell you NOT to use gloves. That's your comfort zone. I can tell you that oftentimes rats will try to "help you" to get things off your body that they think doesn't belong there (bandaids, rings, moles, scabs (ick), even fingernails). That's why it's important to let them know boundaries by eeping at them when they put their teeth on you in an unacceptable way. Don't get bites confused with nibbles, and grooming (which I'm sure you won't). They will nibble and "groom" you with their mouth as well. Sometimes they will even "pull" you into their nest with their teeth. But that won't be a chomp and shouldn't hurt. They will kinda put their mouth on you in a gentle way and pull at you in the direction they want you to go. But there's usually no lunging, or fur standing up. When their fur stands up, it looks like they stuck their finger in a light socket. They will look all bristly. They do this when they are sick, cold, and agitated.

As for the tissue box, I'd go to the dollar store, and buy nonscented, no lotion tissues. Then let him pull them out of the box and watch him have fun!

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So something interesting happened. I opened up the top level of his cage and tried playing with him with the gloves on. I did the high pitched eep noise as suggested and it mostly works but I think you're right. I put this yarn ball cat toy with bells in it in there and played with him.

Here's the most interesting part: he chased his tail more. He loved the ball, but he would get extremely excited and chase his tail round and round. Even if I jiggled the ball he would circle around sometimes instead of play with the ball.

I noticed you're right. I gently pushed the ball to his rump and he whipped around and bit it. So no touching from the behind.

Otherwise he was coming straight at me, peering out of the cage, and even putting his paws on me like he was thinking about climbing me but unsure.

Awwwww! Poor baby is probably starving for attention! Not saying he doesn't get any, just that rats are such social creatures, that they need more attention and contact than many would think! He is so adorable! I really don't think he MEANS to harm or scare you.

Dena said:

Awwwww! Poor baby is probably starving for attention! Not saying he doesn't get any, just that rats are such social creatures, that they need more attention and contact than many would think! He is so adorable! I really don't think he MEANS to harm or scare you.

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Well I have bad news. I did some research on joinrats and my boyfriend decided to try to approach him very slowly and he chomped down and didn't let go. There were no signs of aggression, he was smelling him but all of a sudden he bit so hard he drew blood be he LATCHED on. Prior to this experiment my boyfriend washed his hands so no food smells were on him and then wiped his hands on his face and clothes so it smelled like him. My boyfriend tried getting him off and while he was being dragged he puffed up some.

I don't know what to do with him, I guess we need to use the gloves for a long time.

Eeek! Use the gloves, or a towel to handle him for now. And definitely check on that jewel snip!

Also, I'd keep his interactions with new people to a minimum until then. He may trust you more than your boyfriend right now. So it may be wise to be the only one to handle him. I know SQ and Lilspaz have WAY more experience in handling aggressive or over zealous rats, so they may have better advice. But DEFINITELY listen to them. And watch his body language when the cage is open. There's another thread that has been commented on the last few days, where Lilspaz has put some pics of hormonal puffiness, so you can learn to recognize it, and some tips.

Dena said:

Also, I'd keep his interactions with new people to a minimum until then. He may trust you more than your boyfriend right now. So it may be wise to be the only one to handle him. I know SQ and Lilspaz have WAY more experience in handling aggressive or over zealous rats, so they may have better advice. But DEFINITELY listen to them. And watch his body language when the cage is open. There's another thread that has been commented on the last few days, where Lilspaz has put some pics of hormonal puffiness, so you can learn to recognize it, and some tips.

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We are both coowners and he interacts with him just as much as I do! But thanks. I'm going to wear the gloves to sleep like joinrats suggested so they have my scent. Hopefully I can get him used to me before we snip him.

That's good that y'all are both invested in him! He's a loved little boy, I can tell! I just suggested it for a little bit. But if he's not afraid to get bit, and he still interacts with him, then that's good. I can't wait to hear how y'all have worked with him at get him to the no longer bitey place. Then y'all can help people who are in your shoes (which is a lot)! It helps to have that experience.

a neuter by a good vet with the knowledge and experience to do it safely would likely help as he is quite hormonal

I have to say, Aries looks like my Gideon!
As everyone else has said, I would recommend a neuter. He is very hormonal. Rats have very subtle body language and you or your boyfriend may not have picked up on it and then got bitten. Even when they're hormonal, they give subtle signs as they try to communicate with you. That doesn't make you bad owners or oblivious to rat care, it's just that you have to learn. My first rats were more forgiving with me missing those cues, but I still had to learn it, especially when I took in my Grumpy as a baby.
I didn't have to neuter my Grumpy when he got hormonal, but he did turn out to be a very good boy in the end. He now cuddles and sleeps on me. He and I exchange kisses. This is the same rat that had bitten me multiple times when he was a teenager.

In dogs, persistent tail chasing, shadow chasing, even laser pointer chasing is an obsessive thing. Most people say it's okay to leave that be unless they're hurting themselves or it's becoming extremely invasive. At that point, then you get a dog behaviorist involved. I think this may carry over to rats as well, but there is no such thing as a rat behaviorist, unfortunately.

You won't know how he's going to be with other boys until you try it. Since neuter is out of the question, are you willing to have 2 cages if you can't bond them? If not I wouldn't take the 2 12-wk olds.
As has been suggested, first look here and at www.joinrats.com to learn all you can about signals & what they mean. Then you can prepare yourself for intros. Can you connect with someone near you who has pet rats? or a rat rescue near you? A trial intro might give you an idea of his level of aggression towards other boys.
Perhaps a rescue would let you try your boy with someone looking to be adopted before you commit.
If you have a better idea of how aggressive he'd be with others you'd have a better idea of how to proceed.

I agree about the obsessive thing. Was going to say that as well. But with dogs, it usually stems from them being anxious, or having too much pent up energy.