Still at a loss after vet visit -- help would be appreciated

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Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
10
Location
United States
This is all likely to sound a little silly and melodramatic because everything’s still fresh in my head and I won’t lie, I’m upset. It's nearly 3 AM and I'm too worried to fall asleep.

A few months ago, I moved to pursue an opportunity in another part of the country. My rats were over a year and a half old at that time and I really didn’t like the idea of rehoming them when moving with them seemed just as feasible. So, we all packed up and moved. Prior to this, I had called a veterinarian in the area to ensure we would have one, etc. Anyway, a few weeks after the move, one of my boys sounded like he might have been developing a respiratory infection. So, I went into the clinic’s emergency walk-in hours and after a brief examination, the vet suggests that it’s common in older rats and gives us some baytril.

It doesn’t help. So, I come back. Because the walk-in times are very, very expensive, I tried to schedule something but I don’t think I was able to. So, we end up seeing another vet who gives us vibramycin. For a short while, my rat seemed fine but come this last week and suddenly, he’s not really eating. He’s lost some weight. He’s not nearly as playful as he always has been and he isn’t walking straight. It just looks like he’s having a hard time moving around overall. He’ll waver when he’s standing and he walks close to the ground. To top it all off, his breathing is still raspy.

This next time, I was able to schedule an appointment. The previous two had been very quick and I didn’t think twice on it because they were walk-ins and I get that those are busy hours (it took nearly two hours to see anyone at all both times). This time, I was really hoping to actually get to talk with someone – especially considering how severe (in my eyes) his state seemed.

I’m again put with a different vet and although there aren’t too many others in the waiting area, it’s again a quick visit. He didn’t ask what was wrong and when I was explaining my concerns, really didn’t seem to be listening. This rat is turning two in two days and everything was brushed off as “he’s old.” I was given more baytril and sent on my way with very little explained to me. It was all so cold compared to our previous clinic and I didn’t know what to do. I felt so helpless right then. I didn’t know what was wrong with my rat or how to help him and no one was willing to talk to me or explain what’s happening. I feel like because I brought in a small animal – an older one at that – everyone has been taking on this attitude like he’s somehow less important and that I should care less about him than someone coming in with a cat or dog.

I just want to know what’s happening. My rat was walking around just fine one day and the next, he’s struggling to stand and deteriorating so quickly. I’m so scared and I don’t know what I can do or who I can turn to for answers. I’m looking into other vets in the area. But, in the meantime, I was hoping to ask if anyone here might have any idea what might be going on.

Things I’ve noticed include:

- Thinning fur (this has been happening for awhile but every time I brought it up during a visit, I never really got an answer/explanation so, I – perhaps naively – assumed “they’re professionals, no need to question”)
- Porphyrin around the eyes
- Difficulty standing/getting up
- Unsteady when walking
- Generally less playful though he will still chew on toys when they’re placed near him
- Loss of appetite – he’ll eat foods he particularly likes
- General sensitivity – he’ll do a sort of distressed squeal when his brothers lay on him
- Weight loss
- Loud breathing
- Dry poops? I only noticed one so maybe it was just that one.

I don’t know. Can all of this be chalked up to mycoplasmosis and age? When I was describing the strange movement – the vet did see it because my little guy tried to scamper across the table back into the travel bag – he brushed it off as “he’s old, he won’t be able to move like he used to.” But this all started very recently (the difficulty moving) and I feel like when I tried to explain that, it fell on deaf ears. Literally a week ago, my rat was chasing down my hand and showing me the difference between clockwise and counter-clockwise and now he can barely stand straight.

Should I just follow the instructions on the bottle of baytril for a while and see what happens? I really don’t know what my options are. Would changing clinics be too rash? I’m a little afraid because this one generally had the best reviews in the area.

I’m probably a little too emotional – and I definitely was during the visit. Just before the move, I lost one of my boys to an inoperable tumor. Our vet then was the sweetest person. She walked me through everything so I always understood what was happening to my boy and even though I knew there wasn’t anything that could be done about the tumor, I could find peace knowing what was happening and I felt better equipped to make him comfortable in his last months. But I think just having that all in my mind and still fresh probably does have me thinking a little irrationally.

And I really don’t want to put down the three vets I’ve seen at this clinic. They’re all obviously very well-educated, knowledgeable, and good at what they do! The last guy even seemed to pick up on me generally being sad (and maybe my state made it a little harder to take my concerns seriously) and tried to cheer me up toward the end of the visit. Would it be a bit much to call and ask if someone could walk me through what happened during said visit? I know at our previous clinic, I was encouraged to do so after finding out about that tumor but I don’t know if that’s okay in other places – particularly when this place seems perpetually busy. My rats are my first pets so this is only the second vet clinic I've been to. I really don't know how they work so maybe I'm just going about this all in the wrong way.

I apologize for the length/general unloading/me acting like a crazy person. Thanks for taking the time to look through this! Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Right now, he's cuddled up in an igloo, fast asleep on top of a toy he tore up sometime last night. His breathing seems steady and quiet, and he overall looks really very peaceful so that's helping me calm down quite a lot. He ate some fruit earlier and at least one piece of the Oxbow food. And he's been drinking regularly.

This is completely off-topic but he's been really sweet through this whole thing. A while back, he learned "kiss" as a trick -- where he boops my lips with his little nose so I can kiss his nose. During the vet visit, he just kept doing his "kiss" trick unprompted -- presumably because he's aware that it's my favorite thing. I don't know what I did to deserve this little guy.
 
Awww I'm sorry your old man isn't doing well and you are being brushed off by the vets at the clinic. I'll do my best to help you through this, but first need to know where you are located? Canada? USA?

Now back to your baby...
Can you take a video of him...eating, moving around? Make sure it's on a flat non-slippery surface outside the cage. (Couch or chair is good). I need to see his paws.
When he eats small hard food items can he sit up properly and grasp the item in both paws while eating?
Is he tilting his head at all or circling?
Can you smell his ears and mouth, and check his teeth to make sure they are even across the tops?
Can you hold his side's to your ear and listen to his breathing?
Lastly, how much does your boy weigh? What concentration is your baytril? What dose are you being told to give? And for how long? 7-10 days? 2-3 weeks?
I'll wait for your answers and we 'll go from there.
 
First off, it's really a shame when vets don't put more effort in their bedside manners. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
As for doing the baytril, yes, I would definitely do the baytril, it's such a good med and works on many different infections so if there's an infection somewhere like lungs or even bladder, it will help for sure. We can double check your dosage. Many vets under doses rats. We would need your rat's weight and baytril concentration.
Also, the questions asked by lilspaz will be helpful for further discussions. What did the vet say about lung sounds, anything? Also, thinning hair could be due to a mite/lice issue. I would do a revolution treatment just to be safe, on all the rats. Sometimes a move can be stressful and these little buggies can overpower the rats.
Also, I want to say good for you for keeping your rats with you even with such a long move!
 
Thank you both for the replies!

Going in order:

I am located in the southern US.

I have these videos of him:

Here he is eating a yogi this morning. You can see the porphyrin around one of his eyes pretty clearly. The red around his mouth is the medication we received yesterday. Here, he is sitting up a little bit. I have noticed him doing a lot of lying down and eating too, which he’s never done before. He tends to favor grasping with one paw but here we see him shift to holding his food with both.



Here he is generally just trying to get around (again, earlier today). Early on, he kind of just walked right off of the bed. He didn’t actually fall – I was following him with one hand so he just tumbled into my hand but the shock was enough that I gasped. I’ve never had any of my rats do something like that before (and one of them is likely almost completely blind according to our previous vet).



I don’t know if it’s helpful at all, but I have a couple of videos from about a week ago. I was just sharing some videos of him on snapchat with a couple of friends so they’re short. At this point, he still seemed to be getting around normally. In the first video, he’s spinning but he’s doing so on command (he’s always been the sort to do his spins a lot slower than his brothers but he’s generally a very thoughtful rat)




This is the day before our vet visit. He was already much less responsive (I was having to call him more times to get his attention and he’d stopped coming out to greet me when I came home). He was a little clumsier than usual but generally seemed to still have better control of his movement. By the time we were at the vet, he was moving around a little worse than in that second video (but that might have partially been the slippery surface of the examination table).



I haven’t noticed any head tilting or circling and I can’t smell anything from his ears and mouth – generally just a rat smell to him. I think his teeth look even across the tops but he was a little stressed out by all these examinations so I’ll have to double check after his nap.

Listening to his breathing from his sides, I can hear something – I’m not sure how to describe it. It sounds congested, if that makes any sense, compared to listening to his brothers in the same way.

As of yesterday, he weighed .63 kg. During his previous vet visit, he was listed as .73 kg so there’s some definite weight loss and he does overall feel smaller. He used to be the biggest of my boys but he’s presently the smallest. Even at .73, he’d become the smallest of the crew.

I’ve been told to give him 0.6 cc of his medication every 12 hours for the next two weeks. Then once or twice a day every day indefinitely.

The bottle says 20mg/cc baytril and 10 mg/cc vibramycin.

On the hair thinning/potential for lice. I should mention that we did have a lice problem back when we were with our previous vet. She did get us on revolution and things did seem a lot better after that! After that experience, I made a point to start freezing new toys for 24 hours. I don’t know if it’s relevant, but he’s presently living with his biological brother (who looks like a top-eared version of him) and a hairless boy (who I call his brother but they were not from the same litter or breeder) – neither of which have the same fur thinning (well, the hairless really can’t) but I don’t know if that means anything.

All that said, should I do the revolution treatment? And is there a guide as to how? Last time around, I was instructed to freeze and wash all of their things to kill anything that might be living on them. I was given diluted revolution by the vet and told to squirt a little bit between their shoulder blades (hairless guy included) once every two weeks until the bottle I’d been given was empty. And to carefully watch them for the next couple of hours to make sure they weren’t licking it off of one another.

I guess I’m not really sure how to do it on my own so any tips would be appreciated!

Thanks again for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate the help!
 
Ok your videos helped. Especially the prior ones to now to show the real change.

Is he bruxxing more than normal, stretching out his forelegs stiffly in front, maybe head bumping when you stroke firmly over his head? These are all signs of PT or pituitary tumor. Losing the ability to grasp with front paws, losing edge behavior where they walk off things they wouldn't have before. Seeming confused, eating then forgetting they are/were eating etc
 
Revo you can either do a healthy drop from the tube on the back of their neck or we can work out an exact dose. You should treat only once and you only need to do your regular clean. Revo lasts up to almost 30 days in a rats bloodstream so it's effective longer than the lifecycle of these parasites.
 
He is definitely bruxxing more than usual. I haven’t noticed any head bumping when I’m stroking him – he’ll nestle his head into my hand and kind of lay on top of it but he’s done that since he was a baby. I’m not entirely sure about the foreleg stretching. His overall movements seem a lot stiffer than usual but I don’t think I’ve seen him particularly stretching his arms out.

I’ve been reading about pituitary tumors in rats to see if I can get some understanding of what’s going on but I guess I’m still at a loss as far as what I can for my boy. If it is a PT, what is the best course of action? Should I attempt to see if we can get it diagnosed somewhere?

On the Revo, is that something I can get without a veterinary prescription? I’m looking online and all I’ve found so far is Chewy but even that requires a prescription approval.

Thanks again for taking this time to talk with me.
 
If it is pt it is diagnosed by behavior so you and lilspaz68 will do as good a job at diagnosis as a vet. You can try the wheelbarrow test and the cheerio test (already done in the video when he was eating a treat and holding it with both hands) Here is some info http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php

If it is a neurological issue such as pt, another type of brain tumour, etc, then a steroid such as prednisone or dexamethasone plus an antibiotic such as baytril, is the treatment. A steroid will reduce the inflammation, which will reduce the symptoms, however, if it is a tumour then the tumour will continue to grow so how long it helps will depend on how slow/fast the tumour is growing. An antibiotic is needed because dex or pred will reduce the effectiveness of the immune system. Prednisone can not just be stopped once a rat has been taking it for a short while, it must be gradually reduced over time. See links below

In addition, cabergoline will help a great deal if he has the most common type of pt (bromocriptine works the same but is not as effective and rats are less able to tolerate the side effects) http://ratguide.com/meds/central_nervous_system_drugs/cabergoline.php

http://ratguide.com/meds/endocrine_hormones/prednisone_prednisolone.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/endocrine_hormones/dexamethasone.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/enrofloxacin_baytril.php

In answer to your question: http://ratguide.com/meds/anti-infectives/selamectin_revolution.php
 
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Regarding his breathing
He is on baytril and doxycycline (vibramycin), if this is not effective then you might want to try baytril + azithromycin (10 mg/Ib is the dose my vet prescribes) orally, twice a day ...... or you might to add azithromycin to the baytril + doxy you are already giving to see if it helps.
If antibiotics do not start to help within a few days then you need to contact the vet about trying different meds, or a different combo of meds.

http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/enrofloxacin_baytril.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/doxycycline.php
http://ratguide.com/meds/antimicrobial_agents/azithromycin.php

You are likely already doing this, but just in case....
Hydration is essential ... you can gently pull up on the skin on the back of his neck and let it go to see if the skin snaps into place, if it doesn't then he may be dehydrated. Dehydration kills. Vets can teach you how to give sub-Q fluids and sell you the equipment you will need if he becomes unable to drink and eat enough.
Food - supplement his regular food with soft food that is easy to eat and will also help with hydration.
Such as: rat blocks soaked in cool water to make mush, organic soy infant formula (from a grocery store or can be ordered online from Walmart) thickened with baby cereal, - both will provide needed nutrition
and also cooked sweet potato, baby food, cooked whole grains etc

If you find that he is not able to eat soft food, you can let him lick it off your finger, or feed him using a needless syringe (one drop at a time into the side of his mouth so t does not go into his lungs)
 
Thank you so much for all of the information! I feel a lot better having all of these resources!

Just a quick update:

This morning, he really wasn’t doing well. I immediately called the vet clinic and we went in during their emergency walk-in hours again. I must have really been feeling very emotional when I wrote up that first post but this experience was really good. So I am so, so sorry for taking out my frustration on the clinic! This time around, I was able to explain everything I’d observed and to talk a bit more with the vet (it helped to have all of this knowledge as a starting point – so thanks again to everyone who responded). She went through all of the possibilities – pretty much everything you all have written about here (pt, etc.) – but didn’t feel like we could discount the possibility of lethargy due to pneumonia or perhaps arthritis and loss of vision yet.

Long story short – he’s on prednisone on top of his antibiotics. The vet said that it should help with any of the potential issues he may be going through. I was told that he should start looking better within the next couple of days and if he isn’t, to call back. My understanding is that, the plan is to just observe how he’s responding to the pred and proceed from there.

The vet didn’t seem too concerned about his weight. And he’s been eating great again – soft foods and hard foods alike. He actually spent the entire vet visit munching on some blueberries so that made me awfully happy.

Hydration was something that did come up last time around and the vet did comment on how he seems to be well hydrated yet. But I really appreciate the tutorial on how to check so I can keep a better eye on him, too. He certainly does still have the will to drink – even during the vet visit he was at the water bottle.

But I’m a little afraid that he might be struggling to drink from some of the bottles – if that makes sense. I have my rats in a double critter nation with a water bottle on every floor – two of them have the little springs keeping the ball down to prevent leaks and the last time I saw him attempting to drink from one of those, he didn’t seem to be getting much out. Would it be better to just get a couple more without the springs? Or would those bird water dishes that hang off the side of a cage be better? Because he has been struggling to get around, I’d like to have options readily available for him all over rather than on 2/4 floors.

Continuing on that update, we did not get any revolution this time around. After talking with the vet, she said that the hair loss pattern doesn’t seem characteristic of mites/lice but rather seems like the affect of old age – especially because none of the boys have really been itching.

I’ll continue with updates here as we go through this plan. I may remove the video that shows my face but I’ll keep everything else up in case anyone else is going through something similar!

I’m so glad that I found this forum! Having all of this help has been really helpful during this difficult time! I’m so grateful to all of you who’ve taken the time to read through all of this and respond.
 
water dishes that can not be upset are a good idea, but need to be cleaned and filled at least twice a day as he may put bedding etc into them
 
Looks like PT to me - sorry. Syringe feed him to try and keep the weight on as they will lose it really fast. I usually use powdered baby cereal, ground up critical care, and original strawberry ensure. There are people on here who can tell you what meds to try if you want to treat it, but I will not treat my PT rats. Giving them all those meds seems too cruel to me and I haven't had any respond anyway, but that is my personal thought on it. He will most like go blind so watch him if he is on furniture - I didn't know that with my first one and I let him walk off the edge of the couch...

http://ratguide.com/health/neoplasia/pituitary_tumor.php
 
dspch911 – Thank you for sharing your experience! If he gets to the point where syringe feeding is necessary, I’ll be certain to do it! I really appreciate the tutorial.

Update: I’m pleased to announce that he’s moving around a lot better! Today was his second birthday so it was nice that he was able to get around and to eat the little treats I’d made for his brothers and him. He’s been eating great again, too. He’s munching on a bit of banana right now. Previously, he was eating anything I would give him but today, when he was hungry, he felt good enough to walk to the bowl himself!

He still has some evident issues with balance (he leans to one side a lot and has been propping himself up against things to keep himself upright while he’s eating). He’s also picked up a habit of sleeping on his side with his eyes open (which scared me the first time I saw it). It’d be great if we could see a reduction in that leaning but we’ll see. He definitely still favors one hand over the other and seems to get a little frustrated when food is too large so I’ve been cutting things up to be extra small.

UPDATE 9/7/18: He's really acting a lot more like his old self! The balance issues are still there but he's walking around and playing again. I had to give him a little bath because he doesn't seem to be able to clean up around his butt and his underside but he was nice about it. He's put his weight back on and he's still eating heartily! Starting today, we're transitioning from pred twice a day to once a day in accordance to the instructions the vet gave. Hopefully all continues going well!
 
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With PT he will need to stay on the steroid for the rest of his life. If you do wean him off then watch for regression within the week. Then you'll know it's PT.
So happy to hear he's improving :)
 
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