Are my new rats carrying a virus that is killing off the rest of my mischief?

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fallblossom

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Messages
175
Location
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I brought two baby rats home 2.5 weeks ago who both weighed 120 grams from a pet store. They had obvious URI signs when I got them home with their little myco sounds and constant sneezing and were put on zithro which didn't resolve their issue. Amoxi was added and this didn't resolve their issue. Now they are on zithro and baytril.

The fact that the one rat is still sneezing is indicative that they in fact have a deadly virus (they are active but maybe they're carriers and the virus will eventually kill them). Three of my adult rats are affected so far and here is their history:

First Rat: 18-months old. Bought from a reputable breeder who got head title at 6 months of age who presented with labored breathing three days ago and is now on zitrho, baytril and pred.

Second Rat: 11-months old. Adopted from a person who bought the rat from a reputable breeder who presented with labored breathing yesterday and in on zithro, baytril and pred.

Third Rat: 9-months old. Bred in my home and who has had former myco flare up treated with baytril & doxy who is now on zithro, baytril and pred.

I am certain the baby rats are killing my mischief---there is no other explanation. I am unable to quarantine my rats properly as I don't know anyone who'd take care of my rats for three weeks. Although they are in an upstairs bedroom there is air exchange in my house and we all know we can carry stuff in our nasal passages and pass it onto our rats.

Should the baby rats be PTS in order to save the rest of my rats or would it be in vain because at this point all my rats been exposed.
 
I am so sorry.
It sounds like a highly contagious air born disease and if so, all of your rats have been exposed and it is too late to do a quarantine.

The babies are not killing your rats. Killing them will not help because your rats have already been exposed to the disease.

I would suggest that you add doxy to the baytril + azithromycin (10mg/Ib orally twice a day, lower doses may not be effective). You can also see about getting your vet to send away a culture for testing so that you will know what antibiotics will be effective against this.

Please talk to lilspaz68 about medications as imo all the rats need to be treated aggressively with combos of antibiotics. (I messaged her about your post so hopefully she will see it soon, She has posted on this forum that she can be contacted on facebook under the name Shelagh Hall - she lives in Ontario)

I also posted a reply on your other post with links to info etc https://www.ratshackforum.com/threa...-rescue-from-being-feeders.35258/#post-492814
 
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OK your timeline is 2.5 weeks ago brought home sick babies. Were they in the same room as your residents? The virus takes 6-7 days to present after exposure. So for eg. Sick babies put with residents 2.5 weeks ago, would have residents showing symptoms within a week, more if they were exposed more distantly.

The timeline sounds correct for a virus, and they are very rampant in Ontario right now. SDA being the more common one. I actually took home 2 tiny "healthy" babies and they ended up sick, and the rest of my colony ended up with SDA. This was last November. It happens.

How long have the babies been on doxy/baytril now? Inititally they won't respond for hte first week or so, until the virus sheds (there is no carrier state for SDA or Sendai) but this is also when the secondary infections rear their ugly head but are able to actually be treated. I start all rats in a suspected virus outbreak on antibiiotics so they are fully covered by the time the virus sheds, hopefully minimizing the effects of the secondary infections. I usually have non-symptomatic rats on just baytril or zithro (for babies) then I add doxy to the baytril or baytril to the zithro with sick rats.

Hopefully no one got horribly sick and almost died or did die on you? The first week will be the worst for you, as this is the most dangerous and fatal time of the outbreak. You need to very diligent on holding rats sides to your ears, and listening to those lungs. SDA can be a silent but deadly issue. Any sounds or constriction or extra sneezing put them on antibiotics ASAP. If you have a puffer and a rat goes into a respiratory attack, use that to open up their airways.

You might want to check all your rats for swollen throat lumps or funny looking eyes...those are definitive symptoms of SDA. I have pics if you need to see them.

All my bouts with virus outbreaks over the years have always been from babies or adolescent rats and all of them recovered. Its the compromised older rats or sick rats that have the most issues.
 
None of my rats have any throat lumps or eye issues yet. The babies have been on meds fro 2.5 weeks. I first started with zithro, then zithro + amoxi, and the one baby who keeps sneezing is on zithro + baytri. I dosed the rest of my colony with baytril last night and will be treating them all for the next three weeks. Could this be sendai instead of SDA?

The one rat who had labored breathing did have a myco flare up beforehand. The other rat did show signs of sneezing. The other rat has had myco flare up on and off and this happened before the babies arrived which means they were already compromised. None have died yet but keep in mind the illness only started four days ago.

The one baby rat still sneezes. In case it is a parasitic lung infection I dosed her with oral ivermectin last night to cover all my bases.

With regards to your 'healthy babies' this means they were carriers then? Why is it not all over rat groups and forums that SDA (and sendai) is going around Ontario? I looked this up last night and could not find info on it anywhere? Are people just hush-hush about it in fear of being exposed?

With regards to my colony being exposed to the babies, they were. The babies were allowed to run all over the couch. Why is the one baby not getting better? Would a different class of abs be a better choice. Her sister has recovered well and sneezes the odd time.
 
With regards to your 'healthy babies' this means they were carriers then? Why is it not all over rat groups and forums that SDA (and sendai) is going around Ontario? I looked this up last night and could not find info on it anywhere? Are people just hush-hush about it in fear of being exposed?

As far as I am aware, those diseases used to be rare here in Canada, but now they are everywhere so we need to assume that new rats may have been exposed. These diseases are prevalent in the USA too. Reasons that disease outbreaks are usually not reported may be because they are so common or because of a lack of knowledge. Many people only have a couple of rats so do not realise they have a virus when their rats die and may think it was just myco etc, plus many do not provide vet care or their vets are not very knowledgeable.

I assume the "healthy babies" had been exposed to disease but were not yet showing symptoms. It usually takes awhile before symptoms appear. As lilspaz68 wrote, "there is no carrier state for SDA or Sendai".
 
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there are very few parasitic lung infections in rats so don't worry about that. As for one baby not responding as fast as the other? It depends on the overall immune system of that baby.

These were my plague foster babies...one was a lot sicker for longer than the other, They were just sneezing a little when they arrived. Just over a week later my first rat died. :( The babies themselves shed the SDA virus within a week, then took weeks to fully stop sneezing, and congested sounds. Now they are very happy healthy young rats with a friend :)

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As for why no one is advertising these outbreaks there's many reasons of which SQ touched on a few.

1) Vets being unaware of the virus, either from lack of rat knowledge or having not seen it from their rat clients. Unless you see a pattern or the telltale symptoms with throat and eyes with SDA (these only affect SOME rats so its usually only when you have larger colonies it becoming symptomatically obvious). So as SQ said people may have been unaware or the rats died suddenly or they weren't getting vet care at all. These viruses have a very high morbidity rate (infection of animals) and a lower mortality rate.

2) Backyard breeders, unethical mass breeders, petstore and mills. Most of these are just trying to sell cute babies and as long as it doesn't die before its sold they don't care. The bigger breeders might not inform the public as they don't want to scare off any future purchases. Mills and backyard breeders are the usual suppliers of pet stores so you afe more likely to get contagious viruses from them.

3) These viruses can live off-host (off the rat on your clothes, skin, shoes, toys, and even in your nasal passages for up to 3 hours. If you are out and handling strange rats its best to either avoid your own rats for 3 hours after you stop with the strange rats, or take a hot shower, blow your nose and change your clothes if you must handle your own within 3 hours.

4) Owners with just a few rats who are possibly inexperienced may not realize the pattern of a virus and just think the rat died suddenly etc. For eg. a rat is taken to the vet for a standard respiratory flareup, and unbeknownst to the owner another rat had been out on the lobby chairs less than 3 hours ago and now your rat is infected. Your rat gets antibiotics and starts to get better than suddenly declines very suddenly and dies. You assume it was just hte original infection. This is how these horrible viruses spread like wildfire. Knowledge is key in stopping them. That and going into lockdown if you suspect a viral exposure. You'll know within a week or 2 if you are safe or right in the middle of Hell. Each rat has to contract it and shed the virus in a week. With smaller groups it can go through much faster but bigger colonies its much slower and drawn out hence the 3-4 week lockdown. These lockdowns are no rats in or out, any vet visits have to be carefully planned with your vet to ensure no other rat will be seen within the 3 hours after you have been through. if you are going somewhere there are rats or possible fomites for other rats (like a petstore) either stay away from your own infected rats for 3 hours or have a shower and change your clothese before going. You don't want to continue the spread of this virus to other healthy rats.
 
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As far as I am aware, those diseases used to be rare here in Canada, but now they are everywhere so we need to assume that new rats may have been exposed. These diseases are prevalent in the USA too. Reasons that disease outbreaks are usually not reported may be because they are so common or because of a lack of knowledge. Many people only have a couple of rats so do not realise they have a virus when their rats die and may think it was just myco etc, plus many do not provide vet care or their vets are not very knowledgeable.

I assume the "healthy babies" had been exposed to disease but were not yet showing symptoms. It usually takes awhile before symptoms appear. As lilspaz68 wrote, "there is no carrier state for SDA or Sendai".

Do feeder breeders and other breeders not notice their own colonies dying off one by one? If so, why are they supplying pet stores with these rats and letting the pet stores know? Is there a test I can get on my baby rats to confirm either SDA or Sendai? I believe they have the latter as none of my rats have throat lumps are gooey eyes. They are presenting with labored breathing and myco flare ups. I want to get the test done.
 
Prednisone suppresses the immune response, so you might want to discuss whether taking them off the Pred for now might be a good idea.
Good luck!
 
Prednisone suppresses the immune response, so you might want to discuss whether taking them off the Pred for now might be a good idea.
Good luck!
Yes I know it suppresses the immune system. One of my pt girls was on it for a while and had to be supplemented with baytril in order for her not to get sick while being immunocompromised. The pred, however, will help my rats who are presenting with labored breathing. The rest of my colony is being treated with baytril and ones who have 'myco sounds' are getting additional zithro (I could use doxy but feel zithro may be a better choice at this time).

REGARDING TESTING FOR SENDAI: There is no testing in Canada. Vet are not allowed to send blood samples to US labs where testing can be done. This means I'll never know if the baby rats have Sendai or some other contagion. I was going to have them tested to confirm.
 
I brought two baby rats home 2.5 weeks ago who both weighed 120 grams from a pet store. They had obvious URI signs when I got them home with their little myco sounds and constant sneezing and were put on zithro which didn't resolve their issue. Amoxi was added and this didn't resolve their issue. Now they are on zithro and baytril.

The fact that the one rat is still sneezing is indicative that they in fact have a deadly virus (they are active but maybe they're carriers and the virus will eventually kill them). Three of my adult rats are affected so far and here is their history:

First Rat: 18-months old. Bought from a reputable breeder who got head title at 6 months of age who presented with labored breathing three days ago and is now on zitrho, baytril and pred.

Second Rat: 11-months old. Adopted from a person who bought the rat from a reputable breeder who presented with labored breathing yesterday and in on zithro, baytril and pred.

Third Rat: 9-months old. Bred in my home and who has had former myco flare up treated with baytril & doxy who is now on zithro, baytril and pred.

I am certain the baby rats are killing my mischief---there is no other explanation. I am unable to quarantine my rats properly as I don't know anyone who'd take care of my rats for three weeks. Although they are in an upstairs bedroom there is air exchange in my house and we all know we can carry stuff in our nasal passages and pass it onto our rats.

Should the baby rats be PTS in order to save the rest of my rats or would it be in vain because at this point all my rats been exposed.

I can ask my breeder when we send in our health report next week. She knows everything about viruses but I'm pretty sure she'll say test.
 
I literally just got a message from our breeder that my boys great grand mother died, and got a quicker answer to your virus questions. She said test for carb, because all her recent rats from usa had it. I guess that is good to know, because my friends like to hold rats in pet stores. She can also get anyone's rat tested for $15.
 
I literally just got a message from our breeder that my boys great grand mother died, and got a quicker answer to your virus questions. She said test for carb, because all her recent rats from usa had it. I guess that is good to know, because my friends like to hold rats in pet stores. She can also get anyone's rat tested for $15.

I looked up carb and found this: CAR bacillus is spread by direct contact between rats. There is conflicting evidence as to whether or not it can be spread through fomites such as bedding and cage litter. CAR bacillus is not likely spread by aerosol transmission.

My baby rats did not come into direct contact with any of my colony. They were in the same room as my colony running around on the couch which means whatever they have was transmitted by aerosol transmission. I think the virus might be SDA and not Sendai because one of my affected rats is presenting with a marble sized neck lump. Also when I feel around the necks of my other rats I feel little balls on the left side that may indicate these are the beginnings of the bigger throat lumps.

I have my colony who haven't presented with symptoms on baytril and wonder if I should add doxy alongside it to give better protection. What are your thoughts?
 
Your rat can absolutely be tested for viruses. There's the opti-spot test which can use a drop of blood that your vet can send. It used to cost $100.00 of dollars to get rats tested and the samples sent to a US lab but the new Opti-Spot test through IIDEX has changed that. BUT you have to wait til a rat has contracted, she'd and recovered from a virus as these tests are measuring antibodies not viral load. Antibodies take time to develop until they are easily detectable by testing.

All these tests will do is tell you your rat HAD it, and since they are now immune to it really is just an expensive fact finding mission with money spent better on antibiotics and vet visits. IF you did have a virus go through your colony then it may affect their future health. :(

CAR Bacillus is one that stays in a colony and the only way to remove it is let your rats all die off so there is no more transmission. CARB can make viruses and the myco much worse but there's nothing you can do about it but treat any issues symptomatically.
 
Your rat can absolutely be tested for viruses. There's the opti-spot test which can use a drop of blood that your vet can send. It used to cost $100.00 of dollars to get rats tested and the samples sent to a US lab but the new Opti-Spot test through IIDEX has changed that. BUT you have to wait til a rat has contracted, she'd and recovered from a virus as these tests are measuring antibodies not viral load. Antibodies take time to develop until they are easily detectable by testing.

All these tests will do is tell you your rat HAD it, and since they are now immune to it really is just an expensive fact finding mission with money spent better on antibiotics and vet visits. IF you did have a virus go through your colony then it may affect their future health. :(

CAR Bacillus is one that stays in a colony and the only way to remove it is let your rats all die off so there is no more transmission. CARB can make viruses and the myco much worse but there's nothing you can do about it but treat any issues symptomatically.

I was told by a vet that they aren't allowed to send blood samples over the border...because it's blood.

One of the baby rats who is still sneezing would have antibodies by now, wouldn't she? I got her three weeks ago and she would have had SDA/Sendai before I obtained her. How many weeks does it take for antibodies develop? The one rat who presented with labored breathing last Monday no longer looks critical. Would she be a good candidate for testing? I really want to know which virus is going through my colony. Another rat has a myco flare up today. It's happening in succession as mentioned earlier.

The next quesiton is should I be treating my non symptomatic with enro + doxy or just enro on its own? It would appear the enro is not working if rats are still presenting with myco flare ups so adding doxy to their regime might help. For the rats who have labored breathing, loud myco sounds and are sneezing they are getting enro + zithro (my labored breathing rats are getting pred as well to help with lung inflammation). I am surprised that I am the only one in Ontario affected by this which means I have bad luck.

I was doing some thinking and have come to the conclusion rat ownership isn't for me. If I decide that it is I will adopt myco free lab rats (once their behavioral studies are completed) once my colony is gone (so they can't infect the lab rats) or I'll focus on another furry critter that doesn't cause so much stress, heartbreak and frustration. Through looking at other furry critters it turns out guinea pigs, sugar gliders and degus all squeal loudly which would be annoying.

How many weeks/months can I expect this domino effect to continue?
 
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I'll find the link on the opti-spot test. You can contact IIDEX labs for proper info on this test. It's literally a drop of blood that dries. They offer it to Canadians and IIDEX labs are very friendly to deal with. I believe I have an email myself from them regarding Canadian submissions. I'll go check.

As for lab rats, they are not automatically myco free. Only very specific rats are. Behavioral test rats are not likely to be myco-free. So determine the strain before adopting rats you assume are myco-free.
 
Are these the steps to take to get SDA testing done?
- Order the test kit
- Take kit to my vet so they can get a blood sample
- Send it off

Below are the serology tests. Which is the right one to order? Where is the best place to get blood (the tail or the rat's quick on the nail)?

Rat Serology
Parvo (5 Agents)
Primary (8 Agents)
Clinical (11 Agents)
Basic (13 Agents)
Comprehensive (18 Agents)
Global (20 Agents)
 
I don't handle the rats who brought home SDA. When will it be safe to I handle them? They are being ignored but taken care of. Would wearing a medical mask help?
 
I don't handle the rats who brought home SDA. When will it be safe to I handle them? They are being ignored but taken care of. Would wearing a medical mask help?

people do not get SDA if that is what you are worried about.
Air born viruses can get on people, on their clothing and live in their noses which is the reason for the quarantine procedures re time, showers, changing and cleaning out the nose
 
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