Email from vet - Am I taking this the wrong way?? UPDATE

A couple days after we had Curley and Finn PTS I sent an email to our previous vet requesting they cancel their appointment for this week and I left a brief message for their vet. I believe I was polite about what I had to say - especially since I truly believe she is the reason we lost them so soon. I have received a response from her and I do believe she is accusing me of not doing enough for our boys, not following her recommendations, and basically being the cause of their demise. The more I think about it the more angry I get so I thought I'd put both emails here for more opinions. At no time did we not follow any recommendations other than having blood tests done on Finn since there was no further treatments we could do than what we were already doing. Same with Curley - no need for him to have blood work either! I do not even know what a radiography is because it was NEVER suggested. Sorry to burden you guys with this bologna, but we would do anything for our boys and spent hundreds more like thousands of dollars on them in medical care and to be accused of not doing enough has me :rant: :gaah: :redhot: I'm going to get into an email b**** fest with a vet who obviously is more worried about what I think of her then the care she of my babies!!

Here is my email:

Please cancel appointment for Finn & Curley on 10/17 they were put to sleep on 10/8 at Ness Exotics

Curley was in advanced stages of PT! We will never know if he would of been with us a bit longer had he gotten the proper medication sooner, but maybe this can be a learning experience to listen to the pet's owner that sees them on a regular basis. Apparently his hair loss was another sign along with his eye condition. He did not have an injury. He was completely blind from the brain swelling with no pupil response in either eye. His hanging front paws had no feeling and the cupping, I pointed out, were key signs.

Finn had a large infected abscess in his mouth that bleed when he ate solid foods, this was first noticed on Saturday. I had brought him there with a concern that his bottom teeth were overgrowing weeks ago, but was told they were fine. Obviously not the case, since they punctured the roof of his mouth and was the cause of his drooling. He was not a good candidate for sedation to have the teeth trimmed and the abscess cleaned so we choose, in his poor state to let him go too, so the boys could be together.

We know you tried your best, but we wish you had referred us to Ness sooner as we did not know you only knew basic exotic care. We will miss our boys for quite some time and they will always be in our hearts ♥ Vickie & Al

The response I received:

I am very sorry to hear about the loss of Finn and Curley! Please accept my sincere
condolences.
I did get the records faxed from Ness Exotics and saw that the diagnoses on both rats
were a guess based on signs and history, since testing was not performed there. I had
offered many different types of testing on just about every visit, from blood-work to
radiographs to sedation with oral exam, being that I first noticed the drooling from Finn.
I am only able to do so much with the limited information I had to piece together on
both of them. Without further testing, I am limited.
The dexamethasone shot from Midwest did not seem to help Curley based on what
you told me, so if a longer acting, stronger steroid wouldn't work, then why put him on
more? Many of my treatments and recommendations were not followed through on a
variety of your pets, and it seemed more stock was put into rat blog information from
non-medical persons. So again, I was limited.
I am absolutely much more than a "basic" exotics knowledge veterinarian. I did an
entire year above and beyond my classmates custom tracking exotics rotations, doing
externships on my times off of veterinary school, and volunteering and working
anywhere I could that had exotics from zoos to aquariums to exotics hospitals. So I do
feel I have quite a bit of knowledge and experience above other "basic" exotics
veterinarians but not as much as a boarded exotics specialist, which even all of Ness's
veterinarians are not boarded.
I hope that this experience has brought you to a veterinarian that better suites your
needs.

Sincerely,
Dr. *****

My response:

I was in no way down grading your ability and further testing was not done on Finn because there was not further treatment we could do than what we were already doing so there was no need to put him through those tests. He did not begin the regular drooling until about a week before his death. I do not in anyway believe you could of done anymore for him except possibly trimmed his teeth. Finn fought a hard losing battle and he lived longer than we thought he would.
Curley however, we do think you could of listened more since paw grasping is a major sign of PT. We don't know if the dex/bromo would of helped him since we caught it late, but we could of tired, I know it wasn't a cure, but it possibly could of given us a few more months with him. It would not of hurt to try as he was dying - that was visually obvious to us!
I don't feel you liked suggestions, but that "blog" I kept of my boys helped me see their progress or lack of progress.
We never did not follow through with your recommendations - in fact, GMC is still on antibiotics for URI since it still has not cleared up.
After our last appointment you seemed put off that we went elsewhere. We always called **** ***** first. How do you think we found those other places? They were recommended to us by your clinic. Unfortunately our boys do not only need medical care on Thursday, Friday, and Saturdays. We never hid it from you and we told you exactly what treatment Curley had. Curley was our baby, our most precious rat, and we would of done ANYTHING to save him!!!
We like **** ***** and will continue to go there for basic care, but when they need something more advanced we will go to Ness. I just wanted you to know the outcome - I wasn't placing blame anywhere.

I don't think you were rude. I'm amazed that you were so polite since I have not spoken to the vet who gave me bad medical advice that led to the death of one of my girls, and frequently fantasize about driving my car into their building whenever I pass it. I do think your vet was trying to subtly imply that you were also a cause of the loss of the boys, but I don't believe they meant to be malicious, simply to justify their actions or lack thereof. Still, I don't think it was necessary to respond so soon after your loss if they were needing to justify themselves. The time for that is later, once the family has mourned.

I do think that she spends the entire e-mail trying to justify herself, and in doing so, it appears that she accuses you of having a hand in the loss of your boys because you did not follow through on her instructions. It also appears to me that you were honest with her about the decisions you were making for YOUR boys who YOU know and spend time with more than she does, and she has no reason to go subtly and passive aggressively throwing accusations like she's doing. I find it extremely insensitive that she keeps trying to explain herself, while you're still mourning the death of two very special boys. I'm no vet, but thanks to this forum, even I know the very obvious signs of PT. The fact that she doesn't is a BIG problem if she's advertising herself as an exotic care vet. And another thing, the little jab about the "rat blog" was a completely b----- move on her part. She basically pins everything on you, insisting that it was YOU who got in the way of her "exotic expertise", and that that was the only reason your boys weren't with you for longer. Just reading the e-mails made me angry, and I'm surprised at how polite you were. I would have LIT INTO HER had it been my little girls. I would be LIVID. The headlines would read: "RAT RIGHTEOUS OWNER ENACTS REVENGE UPON EXOTIC CARE VET". Ugh. I'm so sorry for the loss of Curley and Finn, and I'm even more sorry that the load of your grief is only being made heavier by a vet trying to pin deaths of your little babies on you.

I also find it invasive that the new vet released our records to her. Especially after just telling me I had to get our records from them (now previous vet) since they would need the patients (or owner's of) permission to release them. I will most definitely bring this up on Friday when we take our URI boys in to the new place along with the email I received because of it. I will most certainly point out were she puts down their abilities too. :gaah: I am considering taking her unprofessional behavior a step further and find out who owns that place, but I'm not sure it will matter. I want happy memories of my boys not the aggravation and anger she is now causing me!!!

The blog comment she makes I can only assume is based on the following:
1 - I brought in copies of everything I documented on Finn.
2 - I brought her everything you guys tried to help with on protein levels - since SHE told me she didn't know what was normal.
3 - I brought her the suggestions for medications for the PT.
4 - I keep telling her the two weeks was not long enough for URI medication and we needed at least a month - and where I was getting
this information from.
5 - Anything kidney disease related you guys sent me (articles, etc) I gave her since she seemed clueless.

At no time did I disregard her advise or ability (obviously I should have), but I was just trying to help my boys and her since she didn't have the answers and had admitted to having to contact other vets for assistance. I wasn't going to bring this up, but she cannot even spell - I would at least proof-read my email before sending it especially if I was going to tell someone how educated I was!

I used email as my choice of contact so I wouldn't exact revenge :mrgreen: even with my reply to her response I was able to be much more polite then I wanted to be....

It sounds like you brought in suggestions and she didn't actually know whether or not they were accurate - because she is not an expert - so she went along with it, and now that your boys have passed, she decided that the information you brought in must have been wrong because it couldn't possibly be her. If she had had concerns about your information than she, as your vet, should have immediately told you that and given another suggestion. She is obviously not competent.

UhHuhHer said:

It sounds like you brought in suggestions and she didn't actually know whether or not they were accurate - because she is not an expert - so she went along with it, and now that your boys have passed, she decided that the information you brought in must have been wrong because it couldn't possibly be her. If she had had concerns about your information than she, as your vet, should have immediately told you that and given another suggestion. She is obviously not competent.

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She didn't go along with it - that was the problem she always dismissed it insisting something else was wrong with Curley. She basically ignored everything I brought in and I think its because she wanted to be in charge.... I had to take him to a different vet to get the Dex shot after practically begging her for over a week. That's when she referred us elsewhere!

dspch911 said:

UhHuhHer said:

It sounds like you brought in suggestions and she didn't actually know whether or not they were accurate - because she is not an expert - so she went along with it, and now that your boys have passed, she decided that the information you brought in must have been wrong because it couldn't possibly be her. If she had had concerns about your information than she, as your vet, should have immediately told you that and given another suggestion. She is obviously not competent.

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She didn't go along with it - that was the problem she always dismissed it insisting something else was wrong with Curley. She basically ignored everything I brought in and I think its because she wanted to be in charge.... I had to take him to a different vet to get the Dex shot after practically begging her for over a week. That's when she referred us elsewhere!

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That's even worse. I'm so sorry. I know that feeling of helplessness when you're trying to take care of your baby, and your vet shuts you down to protect their pride. That's an awful experience. It sounds like you did all you could. I'm sorry that you had such an inconsiderate veterinarian.

I'm sorry this happened shame on her!

I find the way that she goes on about her training a bit unprofessional really :?

As a vet I think she should apologise if you (as a paying customer) were left dissatisfied with the service recieved... and just leave it at that.

I am a bit confused. For your boy with the bleeding mouth, you didn't have him gassed down for a proper exam?

I can't scroll up properly on my annoying phone, I thought it was drooling not bleeding?

I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated that she was dismissive of all your input in order to show that she was in charge. I see it all the time. When my beloved cat Darcy was sick my vet may as well have put her fingers in her ears and sang "la, la, la - I can't hear you" whenever I tried to tell her something about him that wasn't a symptom by true definition.

lilspaz68 said:

I am a bit confused. For your boy with the bleeding mouth, you didn't have him gassed down for a proper exam?

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No, they told us he would not survive the anesthesia in his condition and he would definitely not survive having it done multiple times if he needed his teeth trimmed on a regular basis. Finn was dehydrated and not doing well from the months of kidney disease/failure. The excessive drooling only started about a week before we had him PTS and the bleeding when he ate solid food I only noticed about 3 days before. I could see the the abcess just by looking into his mouth since it was on top and up front - the vet was able to look into his mouth and see it too. At this time Finn could barely eat anymore from his head swing alone so adding in the abcess just made it worse. We didn't see any reason to let him continue on in this condition. Finn's hole face was snunken in already do to his condition - he really was just bones. We tried everything to give him food and fluids.

What she is referring to is when we would take him to the vet he drooled - that is the only time. He would also pee - that was his fear response. She wanted to put him under to look at this back teeth because she was afraid he was not eating enough hard food to grind them down. That was not the case - we made sure, especially after we knew that could be an issue, that he used his back teeth and ate hard food on a regular basis. (oxbow, crunchy treat, etc) She also stated she did not want to put him under just to look at this teeth since the drooling was not a regular thing. However, about three weeks before we had him PTS I did bring him in because I felt his bottom teeth were overgrowing and she basically dismissed me on that.

She also wanted to put him under for blood work, but on the suggestion of people here and on my own feelings I didn't do that. I saw no reason to since there was no other treatments she said she would recommend regardless of the results of the test.

I spoon feed him, finger feed him, syringe feed him, gave him bowls of baby food, cereal, ensure - We did everything to try and keep him hydrated and nutritioned!! We knew we had to let him go he had been through enough and I don't second guess our decision. We loved that boy and still do! If we thought for a minute we could do more without causing him more pain and days of discomfort we would of - it was his time and we went peacefully with Curley - they are together ♥

I brought this up with the new vet when we saw him Friday. None of their vets are board certified because he told me they just started board certifiying exotics here and its expensive, but they are looking into it and getting themselves board certified. Does this sound right to you guys? He says he did speak with her and they discussed the boys. He also has published and taught many classes on exotics and even invited her to attend the next one. I told him she didn't seem open to any suggestions of which he stated he is always open for suggestions so feel free to bring them to him. This is there website www.nessexotic.com
If you look under meet the doctors Robert D. Ness, DVM, you can see all his publications/lectures and credentials. I think this time I found us a keeper! :joy:

He does sound like a keeper!

From following your previous thread, it sounds as if you simply had a vet who was too set in her ways to consider the possibility that she could be mistaken, or that information on diseases and treatments changes all the time as vets learn and grow, and that many times the pet owners themselves can become just as up to date on trying to help diagnose some of the major conditions too, simply because they have more time to dedicate to researching online, connecting with forums of people working with other doctors on the same illnesses, etc. These days, we have such a strong community of pet owners working hard to keep one another up to date on treatments and advances that work, it's a game changer.

Now, I obviously understand that many times pet owners get things wrong, or bring in information that is simply incorrect, but I think vets owe it to their patients to at least consider the information being brought in without simply dismissing it because "the pet owner supplied it". Sadly, it's hard to find good vets who realize that information changes and that admitting they might be behind the times in some knowledge doesn't make them less of a vet as long as they are willing to consider new research and adjust. I'm sorry that you appear to have ended up with one of those this time around, and even more sorry that they still refuse to really listen to what you are trying to tell them.

I think you did your best with your rats. I think you pushed for the best care possible and hit the horrid brick wall of a *know it all* vet, and at least you still even tried enough to get through to them after the fact. At least you gave them that courtesy, and at least now you know to keep looking until you find a vet who is willing to work *with* you to help your little ones. I know with my current vet, we don't always agree, but he always listens to my input, my sources and what I would like to proceed with, and when he disagrees with me has always talked to me on an equal level and explained why he felt that another course of action would be better. I've brought in a full printed rat medication guide for him to see so he knows I'm not simply blowing dosages out of my ass, and he has never belittled me when I tell him that "the reputable rescuers I talk to have had very good success with such and such treatments". Good vets are hard to come by, and I hope you have better luck with the one you've currently found. Your last one sounds like more trouble than they are worth for trying to actually get quality vet care when it truly counts.