Please help, I STILL can't catch them or touch them!

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allie

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Jul 14, 2017
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Hey everyone, I'm new here and desperately need advice. I feel like a total failure as a rat owner, to the point that I feel like I shouldn't even have gotten them, it's really upsetting :( I am doing my best but nothing is working.
I got two girl rats four months ago, my first rats ever. I was told how social and fun to train they are, I read books and watched youtube videos and read forums on how to socialize, bond with, and train rats before I even brought them home. It all sounded really straight forward, feed them treats and let them sniff your hands for a few days and then you'll be able to scoop them up and start training them. Yeah right... Fast forward to now and I STILL can't even catch them to take them out of their cage for play time. I can brush my hand on them as they run away from me, that's pretty much as close as it comes to picking them up. Everyone says "they'll remember that it means play time and they'll start to enjoy it" ... but they don't. The times I have tried to scoop them up (which my cage makes nearly impossible in the first place because of the position of all the platforms that are attached inside it and the TINY door) they just run around and they squeal and then squiggle out of my hand if I do manage to get them at all. I stopped trying at all because it obviously was only going to make things worse.
I hate that they are in their cage so much, when I got them I wanted them to be able to sit on my shoulders and in a pouch and have adventures with me. But as of right now, their free time consists of me opening the door to their cage and waiting for them to climb out on their own, and then me sitting there hoping that they eventually climb back into the cage cause I can't catch them to put them back in. Which makes having them out really stressful for me, because I have absolutely no control. And the stress is now worse because one of them has started jumping on top of the cardboard wall of the home made play pen and nearly escaping. I've had to grab her by the tail twice now and just barely got her before she got away.
Things seem pretty hopeless for us right now and I've tried everything that the books and youtube people have said to bond with them in their cage and nothing is working. I can stick my hand in the cage and they take treats off of it but they've made no connection between that and being picked up.
Sorry I know this post makes me sound like a real Debbie downer, I just am so sad and frustrated and I feel like their quality of life is not as good as it could be because I am doing something wrong. Any advice about what to do would be so much appreciated.
 
Did you get the two girls together? Where did you get them from? Were they in a feeder bin or from a breeder? Tell me how old they are?

I'm sure you have tried most everything because I know what that's like. But have you tried sitting in a very very small space with them such as a bathroom, that forces them to be in close quarters with you? Then you can have your hand down there with them feeding them treats. Also I have to ask, do you have any small children, cats, dogs etc, anything that might exude smell or noises that would scare them?
 
do you know what their experiences with people were like before you got them ..... were they used to being handled? (ie rats from a store - or many breeders - likely learned people are frightening, while rats being rehomed or from a rescue may have been treated with love and handled)

As previously mentioned, something may be frightening them.

Have you tried wearing a t-shirt with a loose shirt over top of it, and outing the two between the shirts so they will get used to you, your smell, etc? You can do this while you watch tv or read, etc

In general, girls are very active and like to run climb and explore, they generally do not like to be held and cuddled for very long and like to do it on their own terms ...... until they hit middle age and start to slow down a bit

But it is essential that they get out to play and that you are able to handle them - otherwise you will not be able to know when they have become ill until they are extremely ill. (http://ratguide.com/health/basics/basic_health_check.php)

As Sheldon said, you can sit with them in a small, safe enclosed space where they can play and may become brave enough to climb on you or allow you to pet them, or where they will take a treat (such as 1 organic pumpkin seed at a time) from you.

I would suggest you surround their play area with 3 to ft high sheets of chloroplast, attached with stick-on Velcro or cable/zip ties.

My rats love to have access to their cage when they are out playing so that they can go in and out when they choose to.

If they do not like to be picked up then you can teach them to get into a container like a litter box so you can take them in our out of the cage.

I always say the word treat when feeding my rats etc and when they heard that word they usually come running (unless they are busy or not yet ready to go back into their cage). When they are out playing and I say treat, they have learned to go back into their cage or come to me for a treat.

this site has useful ideas http://www.joinrats.com/
 
Did you get the two girls together? Where did you get them from? Were they in a feeder bin or from a breeder? Tell me how old they are?

I'm sure you have tried most everything because I know what that's like. But have you tried sitting in a very very small space with them such as a bathroom, that forces them to be in close quarters with you? Then you can have your hand down there with them feeding them treats. Also I have to ask, do you have any small children, cats, dogs etc, anything that might exude smell or noises that would scare them?

My best guess is that they are about 6 months and 7 months old. I have had them since January or February. They came from my local pet store (which I naively thought was ok at the time since it isn't a chain) who gets them from someone who gets them from all different sources...I originally thought they would be coming from a local breeder but then I learned that probably isn't the case. I got them about a month apart from each other, because of the first two that I got together, one turned out to be a boy (it was before I new you could neuter them) so I gave him back and asked for another girl.

I do have dogs, they don't have access to the cage area, although I'm sure the rats can still smell them in the air and on me. Their cage is upstairs and they have that room all to themselves, no dogs or people running around except me going up to visit them. I know they can hear the dogs barking downstairs from time to time but it doesn't seem to bother them anymore, they don't run and hide when they hear noises like they used to when they first got here.

I've never tried a really small area, their play pen area that I made them is big. I've read some people used a bathtub, I'm just so scared of them escaping that I've never tried. I could fold up the play pen into a way smaller size and try that though. Do you think sitting under a blanket with them would help? Some things I've read said to try that but to me it seems like that might scare them worse.
 
do you know what their experiences with people were like before you got them ..... were they used to being handled? (ie rats from a store - or many breeders - likely learned people are frightening, while rats being rehomed or from a rescue may have been treated with love and handled)

As previously mentioned, something may be frightening them.

Have you tried wearing a t-shirt with a loose shirt over top of it, and outing the two between the shirts so they will get used to you, your smell, etc? You can do this while you watch tv or read, etc

In general, girls are very active and like to run climb and explore, they generally do not like to be held and cuddled for very long and like to do it on their own terms ...... until they hit middle age and start to slow down a bit

But it is essential that they get out to play and that you are able to handle them - otherwise you will not be able to know when they have become ill until they are extremely ill. (http://ratguide.com/health/basics/basic_health_check.php)

As Sheldon said, you can sit with them in a small, safe enclosed space where they can play and may become brave enough to climb on you or allow you to pet them, or where they will take a treat (such as 1 organic pumpkin seed at a time) from you.

I would suggest you surround their play area with 3 to ft high sheets of chloroplast, attached with stick-on Velcro or cable/zip ties.

My rats love to have access to their cage when they are out playing so that they can go in and out when they choose to.

If they do not like to be picked up then you can teach them to get into a container like a litter box so you can take them in our out of the cage.

I always say the word treat when feeding my rats etc and when they heard that word they usually come running (unless they are busy or not yet ready to go back into their cage). When they are out playing and I say treat, they have learned to go back into their cage or come to me for a treat.

this site has useful ideas http://www.joinrats.com/

I don't think they were used to being handled, I originally thought they would come from a local breeder but after I got them home it seems clear that they hadn't been handled much if at all.

As far as being frightened, there are certain things that don't seem to scare them, and then certain things that do. Fast movements and noises, like if I sneeze, or if I jump because one of them nibbles my fingers sometimes, they both run for the hills. But my hand being in their cage, and moving slowly doesn't seem to bother them, they come over to sniff me and will take food, even sometimes will start to climb my arm inside the cage. Sometimes I can carefully touch their sides with the side of one finger if they are sitting still munching food, but they walk or run away if I touch their backs. When they are free in their play area, if I am sitting still they will run under my legs and hide under me, and last night they climbed up my lap for the first time. But if I move to adjust my legs, or if I have to stand up and walk, they avoid me. I don't try to walk towards them anymore because that really scares the daylights out of them.

Part of the problem, I think, is that the layout of the cage and the tiny door makes it so that I can't "scoop" them with two hands like most rat people say to do. If I could do that, it might be easier to desensitize them. But I can only fit one hand in the cage, so if I wanted to pick them up my only option is "the claw" which is probably terrifying for them, so I avoid doing that at all.

So from your and Sheldon's advice, it sounds like what I really need to do that I haven't tried is "forcing" closer contact with a smaller space and/or letting them under my shirt. I'll start using a word when I give them treats too and see if that helps. I'm going to get to work on making their play pen taller so they can't jump over it again. I am planning on making them a new cage soon, and I'm going to make it easier access with the door and platforms so I can eventually work on scooping them with both hands. I looked on join rats.com and am trying the transport box idea in the mean time, although they weren't very thrilled with me finagling a box into their home last night... but they did eventually go in and take the treats out when I left them alone with it.

I think I might need to switch their food back to just lab blocks, because they have started losing interest in treats that they used to like, and I finally made the connection between that and their new food, when the join rats lady briefly mentioned that a diet with lots of seeds is high fat and protein so they are less interested in treats. I thought I was being nice by giving them a more interesting diet, but maybe it is backfiring.
 
You both have given me new hope, thank you so so much! I really want them to think of me as a friend eventually, and now I have some new things to try, I was scared that I was out of options so that is a relief. Hopefully I'll have some progress to share at some point.
 
From your description it sounds like you are making a lot of progress ..... and they sound like normal little rattie girls frightened by the same things that frighten other ratties.

The recommended diet for rats is:

80% of the diet is a good quality block available at all times. The recommended blocks are Oxbow Garden Select (a new block that imo looks like it may be the best), Harlan Teklad 2014, and Oxbow Essentials. If you can not get any of these, Living World hamster blocks are ok.
Rats need low protein (less then 14% of diet) so a block with 16%, 14% or lower level of protein. (Blocks are designed to meet all the nutritional needs of rats but it is best to fed them other things as well.)

20% of the diet is daily vegs, such as broccoli, baby kale, greens, cooked sweet potato, raw or cooked carrots, peas, cooked squash, cooked pumpkin, raw or cooked cauliflower (it is good cooked and mashed with cooked sweet potato), a piece of cucumber, organic fresh or frozen/thawed corn, a small amount of cooked beans or cooked chick peas (not too many because of protein but they make a good treat), etc

and healthy (whole food) treats such as a piece of fruit, berries, organic pumpkin seeds, (baked) squash seeds, cooked (by you on the stove) whole grains such as quinoa, oatmeal, groats, organic 12 grain 'cereal' (which contain no added sugar, no other added ingredients), a few cooked beans or a few cooked chick peas, etc
edit: and organic kamut puffs = has only 1 ingredient (no added sugar, etc)

Remember whole foods - and low fat, low protein and foods with no added salt, no added sugar, no added fats, no artificial sweetner, no fructose corn syrup or "natural sweetners" (one of the new names for fructose corn syrup). And no GMOs whenever possible because they cause inflammation which causes disease.
Also GMO corn is designed to kill rats, so only feed fresh or frozen organic (or nonGMO) corn.
Feed a variety of healthy unprocessed foods (whole foods).
My rats love eating my homemade veg and bean soup (no added salt etc)

Water - rats need water that does not contain chloride and does not contain fluoride. Water filters, such as beta filter, can remove chlorine. Fluoride is very dangerous and if it is in your water it can only be removed by distilling.
Rats need at least 2 sources of water, changed twice a day. At least one source needs to be a water dish that can not be upset. Baby rats may look like they are drinking but they can not get water out of water bottles because their tongues are not strong enough to more the ball bearing.

There is a forbidden foods list. http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=590
- Many people are trying to find a healthy whole food diet that will meet all a rats nutritional needs but so far, to my knowledge, no one has managed this.
- Some people feed a small amount of blocks twice a day and a large variety of whole foods - vegs and some grains daily and a small amount of fruit and seeds
- You might want to check out the posts in the reference section of this forum

Congrats on the new rats
 
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I didn't know that about water and GMOs. I don't think our water has fluoride in it, we have well water, but I'm not sure about chlorine, honestly we've never had it tested. I guess I should get a filter just incase. For food they have a mix of pellets and seeds, it kinda looks like bird food actually, but I just ordered a big bag of Oxbow essentials so hopefully once they get transitioned to that they will be more interested in treats again. Other than that I give them fresh veggies and fruits every day or every other day, they seem to like greens the best of all. They used to love sliced raw almonds but haven't been nearly as food motivated since they've been on the bird food looking stuff, so we'll see if being on the Oxbow food helps them with that and then maybe we can make some progress with the transport box training.
 
Most water in the US does have chlorine but it can be removed easily with most filters. I'd like to recommend the Zero Water filter to you, because as far as I've found it's the only pitcher-style filter that removes both chlorine and fluoride. Frankly, I don't want either of those things in my body either so I drink it too.

They probably aren't as interested in the fresh things you are offering because they are picking their favorites out of the seed mix and stuffing their faces with that. I swear, it's like having a bunch of three year olds! [emoji23]
 
Do you take both out at once? If you do try taking one out at a time. My female rat hopper was very jumpy and a pain to catch when I got her she even bit me a few times. I use to take her and momma out at the same time and could never get her to calm down so I started to just take her out. I tried the double shirt thing and it worked in tell she figured out how to get under the bottom one.( she now go's under my shirt and curls up to my bra.) Don't know why but she seems more comfortable like that.
I wish you the best and hope you find what works best for you and them. PS. Since you have dogs try putting a fresh clean set of clothes in the room to change in to for play time that way the smell of the dogs aren't on you
 
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