Intros: is it normal to go from friendly to aggressive?

I've been intro'ing my two boys (old timer Sam and newbie Zeke) all week long, following the model posted in this forum. They are both over a year old and have been living alone-- Sam for two months, since his brother died, and Zeke for almost a year at the SPCA. The interactions have been mostly what you would expect. There's been some puffiness and crowding, at least one brief boxing match that led to a pinning, but mostly they've tolerated/ignored each other, and nothing horribly aggressive.

Yesterday, though, I thought we had a breakthrough-- they got along so well that they ended up cuddling up together and slept in a rattie pile on the kitchen island for a couple of hours (see pic below!). They both seemed pretty relaxed... almost relieved, if you want to read into it.

I probably rushed this, so I'm kind of blaming myself, but I thought, okay, clearly they're best buds now, let's try moving to the next step. So I thoroughly washed the big cage & the various hides, put in completely new hammocks, etc., and let the boys go explore together. Sam immediately went to hide in one of his caves, and Zeke started acted like a bit of a bully, pushing himself into the hides after Sam, then coming out, then going back in, over and over. I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean. When Sam finally came out to explore, Zeke followed him around everywhere and generally wouldn't give him a moment's peace. There was no fighting but I got uneasy with how persistent Zeke was being and how puffy he looked, and how unhappy Sam seemed, so I removed Zeke and put him back in his separate cage.

So, tonight I brought them out again on neutral ground, same place they napped together yesterday, but they were not feeling the love today-- in no time they were in a fighting ball and had to be separated. Poor Sam lost a tuft of fur (but I didn't see blood, thankfully).

I'm discouraged and feel badly for maybe pushing them too quickly, but I'm mostly worried about this sudden aggression when I thought things were going okay. I'm also irrationally irked that Zeke, who is the biggest sweetie with me, is being such a bully to my sad old Sam, who I just want to be happy after he's been depressed for so long. Where do I go from here?

What do you have for a cage?

Go back to neutral area intros with a tasty treat they can not carry away as it may provide a distraction
Make sure it is no ones territory and go slow
If either gets puffy or starts to seem aggressive, you might pick him up and cuddle him until he is feeling safe and relaxed and them put him back into the intro

Hopefully it will work out ok because it sounds like it was going well
They are adorable in the picture

There is another step that is scary which can be used if necessary but I don't know that you would want to do that with Sam

Keep trying intros, but if you find that it is not working then Zeke might need a neuter

Unfortunately, it's the rushing it that did it but all is not lost, like SQ said, go back a step.
Next time, what I would have done is leave them in the cage and work it out but only if you were home all day to keep an eye on them. Also, it should have been the bully that was removed, not the Zeke. Sam needs to learn to share and that his behaviour is not acceptable so he would go into a smaller cage.
But that's for next time... start your intros all over again, it should go faster this time. Also, if you are able to do intros twice a day, that would be even better.

I would also suggest removing any hides or houses and even pocket or bunkbed style hammocks so you can see what's going on all the time and no one can feel trapped if they go in and the other blocks the door.

lilspaz68 said:

I would also suggest removing any hides or houses and even pocket or bunkbed style hammocks so you can see what's going on all the time and no one can feel trapped if they go in and the other blocks the door.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is recommended that when rats are finally put in a cage together, that the cage is empty and you slowly add items as the hours increase
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32368

good luck with the intros

Ugh, is this ever going slowly. Boys have not gotten back to the cuddle stage yet. Zeke (newbie) is still puffing up at Sam. Sam is a bit of a chicken and will try to escape onto me if given the chance. I'm still only trying them in neutral zone. I'm not sure if I'm being overly cautious and separating them too quickly when they start posturing at each other--like maybe they need to have the confrontations?--but I'm so anxious about one of them getting hurt that I always intervene and take the aggressor (usually Zeke) out for a bit.

I'm sure it would go better if I could intro them earlier in the day when they're a little dopey but I work so it's evenings or nothing.

So frustrating! I'd hoped they'd be in the same cage and pals by now. I can tell Zeke is bored in his cage alone, and he's in the small cage, which was never meant to be a full-time house.

You might be intervening too fast which can delay their progress. How long are your intro sessions? Try switching places, if you do it in the tub, try a table top or the couch or on the bed.

The sessions vary... sometimes 5 minutes before I call it, sometimes 20. They just had a pretty successful one close to 30 min... still early enough that they didn't have the late-night energy. Good idea about varying location; I'll do that.

Does anyone know what this posture means? Zeke (Siamese) keeps pushing himself under Sam's head. It's constant. I can't tell if it's "hey, can we be friends?" Or "GROOM ME, I AM IN CHARGE!" (For his part, Sam doesn't seem to know what to make of it. He just endures it.)

You want to keep them together for intros at least 20 mins so their stress levels are going down not up

It's GROOM ME I'm in charge. But in that picture, they both look pretty chill.

I know it can be frustrating, but don't let any time frame dictate when they live together. Some intros are ridiculously easy and some take months. Just be patient and it will work out eventually.

Thanks.

Yesterday was not bad, actually-- no puffiness at all-- so I have hope!

I also made an appointment to get Zeke neutered. I figure they would eventually be fine with each other regardless, but I'm sure this will help... plus anything that might curb the pee dribbles in that curious little explorer is very welcome.