Help with aggressive females - difficult introductions

Help with difficult intros!!!

I have 4 girls. One is a Elodie, new, a couple months old, currently housed in a separate cage. Then I have three girls in my main cage: Izzie is a year and a half old and sweetheart. The other 2 are sisters, Talulla and Lilybelle and a year old. A couple weeks ago I tried intros between my 3 girls and Elodie on neutral ground, and Lilybelle who is the alpha, attacked her badly, puncturing her shoulder in two places. Now that Elodie's recovered, I have tried to begin intros again. Between the first failed intro and now, I have switched litter and kept their cages side by side for about two whole weeks. But while Izzie has accepted Elodie, the two sisters still puff up and are aggressive when they see her in her cage. I tried an intro today between Elodie, Izzie who is no issue, and Talulla (who is the beta in the cage) in my bathroom. However while things were great for two minutes, Talulla bit Elodie ear. It left a scratch but I have no doubt it would've been worse had I not be able to separate them immediately.

Clearly these two sisters I have have hormonal issues or something. Elodie is sweet and submissive. She isn't even annoying or kittenish. It's just her very presence that triggers them. Any suggestions for dealing with aggressive hormonal females in intros? I refuse to believe it's impossible. They accepted Izzie, though it was when they were very young. I am thinking about putting Elodie in a cage full time with only Izzie, but since Izzie is getting old, I would hate for Elodie to deal with that loss and not be with other sisters. But nevertheless its feeling really hopeless right now...

I'll take any and all suggestions! And also nice stories from people who have rats that really didn't get along that now do...

During intros do you have any play things out with them that have scent on it?

I have had rats that were like this, and I was able to bond a group of 18+ with lots of patience. Don't give up it is possible!

Have you tried switching their cages? Put them in each others cages and let them explore. Watch them while doing this and see their reactions.

Also during playtime you can wipe them down with some baby wipes so they all smell the same and give them good food. This has worked wonders for me. Goodluck with your girls.

I was having a very difficult time introducing my girl Tabi to the group - the female alpha Ruby was the worst. I had to make the neutral ground VERY scary - the kitchen island with the cats on the floor was bad enough that they didn't attack her.
Keep your sessions very short initially. If things go bad after two minutes, then end it at one minute. Try to stop on a positive note.
Switch bedding every day (cages if possible).
Have some yummy food on a small plate so that they have to share the food close by.
And take your time. Slow and steady wins the race.
Have a look through some threads - I'm sure there is one on introductions.

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32368

Go slower ....
How old is your new girl?
Is she under 10 weeks?
Will the others attack Izzie if she is with the new girl? Because she will smell like the new girl if she spends time with her, even in a neutral place.
If they do not hurt her, then let the two of them spend time together. in a neutral area or play area

If the other two are still puffy in a week or so of trying the a suggestions in the link, I can make further suggestions

So to answer questions..

Elodie is about 10.5 weeks, and she is an extremely large youngster. We're talking nearly the same size as my fully adult girls which blows my mind. And I know her exact birth date, so she's not any older. But yeah she's a huge rat.. Or at least she's going to be!

I have been switching litter, but the cage the three girls are in is much bigger than the one Elodie is in, so I worry I can't ger the scent in there really good.

Tonight, I tried putting some of Elodie's pee on the two aggressors to get them more used to the odor, up front and personal. They play fought each other after they smelled it on each other. But it was just a quick dominance squabble and then they moved on and snuggled again. I assume based on this, that they will not attack Izzie. Also, they do not attack me, and I often smell a lot like Elodie from handling her.

Also, I spent a good hour observing the girls tonight. Talulla is definitely the huffiest and puffiest out of the two and it makes me actually wonder if she was the one that attacked Elodie the first time.. I know that sounds awful that I am not 100% sure, but Lilybelle and Talulla are basically identical looking with the exception of very slight differences in blazing and in the chaos of separating them (because it was such a shock to me it was panic and chaos) it's possible I had a mix up. I could've sworn it was Lilybelle, but my boyfriend who was also there says it was Talulla. If Talulla is the sole aggressor, that makes my life a bit easier, but I still don't trust Lilybelle since there seems to be some hormonal issues in their litter (I know someone who has their brother and he is aggressive), and will still proceed with the same amount of caution for both.

There aren't any smelly toys out during playtime. The first intro was on my coffee table, which I had scrubbed clean. My girls don't spend any time on it because they hate it -- white and slippery. The intro was fine for about 10 minutes and then just when things seemed good (either) Lilybelle/Talulla snapped and charged for Elodie. I know you have to look for warning signs, but I swear to god, there was no huffing or puffed up aggression. It was like a split second mind change.

The second intro was on my bathroom floor just after I showered so it stunk of soap and shampoo. I didn't put them in the tub because I have a sliding door to my tub/shower and I wanted quick access to them in case I had to yank them a part and the door gets in the way.

I would do intros on a small table top. I would have a small time out cage ready close by. Each time a bully goes after Elodie, say a firm no and place in the small cage. Make sure there is nothing in the small cage, no toys, no food, no water. Also, during the intros there shouldn't be anything there except maybe some soft food for distraction.

Thanks, all for the continuing suggestions.

I'm just so frustrated my girls drew blood. The rule is no blood, no foul, and they can't even be mean -nicely- They're bullies and I'm so nervous during intros because I don't want them to seriously wound Elodie again.

Any tips for my stress? Haha.

lol and you know, you stress is a huge factor for them. Try and remain calm, even if there's a fight. Have some treats nearby, always end the intro on a good note.

Today I switched their cages -- temporarily because Elodie's cage is too small for 3 big girls.

My 3 girls freaked out initially, puffy and huffy. But after 10 minutes they chilled out (especially because I put treats in there), and even hung in the hammocks a little. Elodie of course had the time of her life running around a big cage all by herself! Then when I switched them back, my girls huffed and puffed at Elodie in her cage again, but then that ended after 5 minutes. I think I'm going to do that every day until they stop freaking out...

Though at this point I am worried they'll never stop!

I used to put the new kid's cage down on the floor during out time so the gang could check it out, and put the new kid in the big cage where they were safe. Any chance for them to sniff and get used to each other's scents is a good one.

Oh good tip Joanne.

Hey all-- quick update. I successfully intro-ed my eldest girl (Izzie) and the new rat (Elodie) who is now adult sized and still growing! It took them several days to sort out their pecking order but things have finally settled. Now, at least all four of my rats have a buddy to live with.

Now... To introduce them to the two problem girls... So, I have been doing cage swaps for the last week. One pair spends the night in one cage, one pair spends the night in the other, and then I swap them during the day time. I also have the cages stacked rather than side by side, because huffing and puffing from my aggressive girls, while it was getting better just wasn't going away and I worried that it was just making them more anxious. I *think* things are going better since when I hold Elodie up to the cage to give the problem girls a sniff and a look, there isn't any aggression display.

Today, I did my first intro between Elodie and Izzie, and then Lilybelle with vanilla extract in the bath tub. I plan to introduce Lilybelle and Talulla to Elodie and Izzie separately, with Talulla going last since she seems more nervous. Today's intro lasted 30 seconds, Lilybelle gave Elodie 4 passes in the bathtub, sniffing her butt each time. And then I ended it there before it could go south! I wanted it to end on a good note.

This is the slowest intro process I've ever experienced and I just wanted to update you all and run it by you guys so I know I'm still on the right track.... Fingers crossed...

If there a reason you don't want to do all 4 at once? It might be easier on the nervous girl to have her buddy with her during intros.

I tried that and it was disastrous. The nervous girl, since she's alpha makes her sister worried and then everyone gets hyped up since they collectively pick on the other two. I've also had it recommended that since my alpha tends to be a big bully, it may make sense to intro her last so she is the newcomer coming into the situation rather than the resident boss rat. When I say nervous, I mean that she's extremely territorial which unfortunately, knowing many of her siblings with similar problems, is probably due to overzealous hormones.

Update from today-- this AM I had a very successful 1 minute intro between the three girls, and then early this afternoon I did a second intro for 2 minutes and it was fantastic! Lilybelle seems to be doing much better without her bully sister in these intros!

That's good that this way is working for you.