Help with Intros

Well, I've never done this before but I've done a considerable amount of research. I have two 8 week old male rats and two older males that I am trying to introduce. I haven't tried much because I didn't get far.

One of my older rats, Simon, did great with his intro. Just sniffing and scurrying around with the younger rats. I got them to all go together too and they were still fine. I only did it once because today I tried intros with Luffy, my grumpier older rat.

Well, that didn't go so hot.

It seemed fine at first, Quincy(the younger rat who I chose to intro first), was very calm and let Luffy sniff him. But, when he tried to sniff Luffy a fight broke out and they ended up in rat ball. Nobody was hurt, but I ended the intro there. I'm not quite sure where to go from here and what steps I need to take to get everyone to get along. I feel like once the group is together, it will balance out. The young rats will have each other and Simon to play with and that will draw attention away from Luffy who seems very solitary.

Help? ._.

Additional Info: Luffy doesn't seem to ever injure other rats, the most he's done is pull out tufts of hair from Simon but he's never injured him worse than that. But I can tell it is aggression because he puffs himself up and huffs/breaths heavily. He's such a grump.

I am doing it on the floor of my room, they all usually hang out on the bed. Maybe I should change to a completely different room?

Wait until the babies are 10 weeks old before doing physical intros so they will be big enough to defend themselves.
in the meantime, exchange used cloths between the 2 cages so they get used to one another's smell

Okay, so two more weeks.

They play in the same area so they do smell each other and they are in the same room as one another.

I'll probably let Simon play with them since he seems to enjoy their company, Luffy will have to wait until they're older.

Also, I don't think waiting two more week will make Luffy any less grumpy. .__.

This info might help:

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32368

Just make sure they are well supervised,
and also that Luffy doesn't beat up Simon when he returns to the cage because he smells like the 2 new rats

Okay, so before I do physical intros I'll just switch out their hammocks and when one group is playing I'll let the other group explore their cage. :3

At 10 weeks I'll try intros again, in the bath tub and hope things go well.

There is one question that was left unanswered from reading that. Do you introduce one rat at a time? Or can I do them in a group? I feel like that would be better because then Luffy wouldn't be getting too much attention from any one rat.

I have always introed them as a group (all older rats and all new rats) and so have other rat owners I know

good luck

Okay then that's what I'll try! I'll be letting you know how it goes. If Luffy never gets along I'll have to neuter him.

Oh, btw, some people believe that letting them explore one another's cages helps, other people believe it isn't a good idea

You got some great advice already from SQ.
I just want to add that I've always done group intros and never one on one so that there's not just one target but several factors which can help Luffy deal with it better.

Thanks!! I figured that would be better for him. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

Okay! I did a group intro today in my bathtub! It went really well. Nobody got in a fight, nobody got hurt. There was some fear pooping in the beginning. Luffy was surprisingly calm and at one point looked like he wanted to play with one of the babies. He was also very vocal during the beginning, anytime anyone would touch him he would squeak, including me. It was strange. I think he was just overwhelmed at first. He almost got in a fight at one point, but I nudged him away and everything was fine.

Everyone else was splendid. Simon was really enjoying the little ones' company. He would crawl underneath them and close his eyes. He was so comfortable and just wanted to cuddle the way he can't do with Luffy. He'll be so happy when he has them in the cage with him. I'm so glad it went this well! I was expecting for Luffy to pick a fight left and right but he handled himself very well. The babies seemed a little overwhelmed as they kept seeking me out and wanting to come out of the bathtub but they were fine. Towards the end, I heard some bruxing which I construed to be happy bruxing The older boys even seemed to settle down even though they were in an unfamiliar place, laying and relaxing. The young ones never calmed down, but they didn't react in a negative way.

I also learned my older boys love water. It was adorable. The faucet was dripping and they would let it drip on them, then use the water to clean themselves. <3<3

I plan on doing this a few more times and then moving them all in on the next cage clean.

That's good news.
I do want to caution you though that when Simon crawls underneath the babies, he's being dominant. So I would keep an eye on Simon during the intros too.

Okay. I'll keep an eye on him. He's never aggressive though, even when Luffy is being a jerk which is always. He has never puffed himself up or huffed. It honestly just looked like he was enjoying their company.

Don't the dominant rats try to be on top of the other rats? That is how dominance is displayed with dogs. I'm still learning about rats but it didn't look at all like a dominant behavior.

Ya, not like dogs at all, but very interesting when observing them.

It is extremely interesting to watch them. I learn a lot just from sitting there observing.

The second intro went just as well as the first! I feel I'm lucky because the babies don't feel the need to try and dominate the older rats. They let them do their thing and accept what is. That's what's making this easy.

This time was similar to the first. Luffy got mad once, so I pulled him away until he calmed down and he was fine for the rest. He didn't seem as overwhelmed as the first time either with no squeaking this time. There was some grooming from Simon onto one of the younger rats(quincy) who stayed still until he stopped. Same with the first time, Simon did a lot of crawling underneath them and laying there. Luffy did a little of that too, but not so much. He's more of a sniffer and if they don't let him sniff them he would get mad, I know it. But I'm so happy it's going so well, I hope it continues along this path. Introducing them as a group is working wonders because Simon acts as a mediator and seems to interrupt when things might get tense. Ex. Luffy with both of the babies in front of him might get overwhelmed but Simon slips between them. Yay! There was bruxing from both Luffy and Simon, but none from the babies so far. I believe that's just because they aren't in the position of power and don't yet feel comfortable.

How many more of these short 15-30 minute intros in neutral territory should I do before moving them into non neutral territory, which would be my bedroom(their play area)?

Can you do an hour long on neutral? It would be good to see how the older boys react when they get tired and fed up of the intro. I would do another 2 or 3, long ones and then move into familiar ground and do another 3 long ones there and if all goes well, a big cage scrub down and move in.

Okay! Sounds good! I usually just stopped the intros where Luffy and Simon got lazy as tired and plopped themselves down. I'll do a long one tomorrow and let you know how it goes!

Alright well I did an hour long intro last night and everything went splendid. I honestly think I'm just gonna do anew intro in my room now. They were laying around together and we're incredibly comfortable. there was only one dispute but it was quick and there was no puffiness and no blood. I think Luffy just scared Cass and he squeaked. But I feel comfortable moving to the next step.

That's great!

Well I've hit a roadblock. Luffy does fine on neutral territory but when I put them in my room he lashes out at the babies. Simon is still fine. They have free run of my room. Could it be that I need to isolate them in the room so he's not randomly running into them and feeling threatened? Ugh. I was so close.