Problem Children, Help!

Okay, so I need your guys' help. I recently(About two weeks ago) got two rats from the pet store I work at. I kind of bought them on a whim, but had been planning on getting them for at least a couple years. I had bought a huge chinchilla cage and bought random toys here and there so they'd have stuff when I got them. I used to have two rats that I adopted and they were already used to me. Now, I have two rats who were never socialized and are extremely jumpy/skittish.

For the past couple of weeks I've been doing trust training with them, using baby puffs to lure them to the cage door and then out the door. I also use baby food and some yogurt, which only my larger rat Luffy seems to be interested in. Simone likes it, but won't go far to get it. They come to the door when I call them and get their treats(Most of the time, Simone is really food driven and comes right out but Luffy waits for Simone to go first) but they're still really skittish. They don't really want to come out of the cage though. Simone will barely come out of the door, Luffy comes out an explores for a couple seconds and then goes back inside. I had them at the point when they'd come out and actually run around together, but then Luffy escaped his play pen one day and I had to usher him back into the cage. It really scared him. :c After that, I had to take them to the vet because I'm currently treating them for Myco. I feel like both of these incidences have put a major set back in my training.

Some more info. They don't like to be picked up. Simone lets me wiggle my fingers around his face and doesn't mind. Once I have him picked up he's not too bad and it doesn't seem to leave a bad impression on him. Luffy lets me pet him, but he gets tense and when I try to pick him up he really struggles. But I've heard the forced socialization method is bad and have been avoiding it. People I work with tell me to do a little of both, trust training and forced socialization to create a good mix. But, I'm not sure. I don't want to lose their trust.

I need your help guys. What can I do next to get further improvement out of them? Withhold treats until they come all the way out(which seems silly)? Just take them out on my own and place them into their play area? Do I pick them up for small intervals each day and hope they get used to it? I just need a little advice from you rat experts. I wasn't expecting them to be so afraid. When I clean the enclosures at work the rats always curious, fallowing my hands around the cage and yearning for attention. But maybe I didn't pick the right rats. I just want them to get to that point where I can hang out with them, let them run around my room and trust them to come when called. Be okay with being picked up and touched, petted, loved on. It makes me jealous to see everyone's rats. I'm not a patient person, but I'm being patient for them and hoping they come around. Please give me your input, suggestions, advice, whatever you have to offer because it does help! I know I should have gotten them from a breeder now, but I won't give up on these guys.

Honestly, I've found the best method other than giving them treats for rewarding behaviours I liked. (Them letting me pet them, coming to the door etc.) Was so just plop them down a hoodie I'm wearing with a shirt between us and keep them there for 20 minutes +. You have to do this every day btw, for a while. Probably a month or two. They eventually learn that nothing is going to harm them and usually turn out pretty nice. This worked on a scared rat I received from an owner who no longer wanted him. He was terrified of anything that moved or breathed too loudly. Now he's happy, comes to the door, is always curious and let's me handle him no problem. I've had him since July. (Though he still doesn't understand shoulder riding)

Minus one of my rats, he's a different case though, he was (What I suspect/was told) abused as he's terrified of hands. We've got him to the point of letting us pet him and sometimes pick him up (once like a week maybe), but his fear poops stink so no down the hoodie time for him. I've had that rat since August and only got this far and even now there are bad days. I'm going to say if you're going to use just the treat route just give it time, it might take a while. Honestly, your guys sound pretty okay so far, I would just keep it up and have patience.

Oh man, I'm jealous of anyone who can have rats come when they're called... my boys never listen. XD

Rats are prey creatures which is likely why they don't like being picked up yet. They are concerned it could be an eagle trying to capture them for example. I'm not sure how you lift them but you may want to try going underneath them instead of above. I find they really like to have their feet supported as well so they feel secure. It may take some time to get used to you but most rats get over their fear of being picked up.

Two of my girls had a really rough start to life including an incident involving a snake that wouldn't eat them. So by the time I got them they were more terrified than I had ever seen in rats before. I started with talking to them from outside their cage, then I began to put my hand beside them as though it was another rat and talk sweet to them. Next I could start petting them. We really spent a long time in cage together before I took them out. My playpen/rat play area is around the cage but if it wasn't and they weren't coming out on their own I would have to take them out and get them used to me. I think it's important to have earned some trust before you start to push them too much. But eventually pushing them slowly past their comfort zone really helps. I think for me it's about baby steps.

Okay, so when do you know they're comfortable enough with you? It seems to me like they're regressing and I'm not really sure how to make them go to the next step. I would say take them out, but I don't want them to get too scared. If I keep only feeding them treats when they come to the door, I feel like they'll get the impression that they can just stay in their cage. But what if it is really building trust and they end up liking me. Ugh, idk. It seems more complicated than I would have imagined.Especially after that one incident with Luffy. It'd be easier if he'd come out again for longer than he does. Simone seems to follow his lead outside the cage and Luffy follows Simone's lead inside the cage. :S

Note: I also raised the cage of the ground because my cats come in. I'm not sure if that's maybe why he's afraid to come out. I had it on the ground and he came out, but after the care he didn't. I only tried one time after the scare before I raised it and now I just pull the cage up to my bed so they can get out and roam there.

Can I pet them while they're in the cage, even If Luffy stiffs up when I do?

UPDATE!: I think I had a mini breakthrough today. I did my routine and pulled them close to the bed so they can hop on out. Luffy came out and explored for like 10 minutes before going back in. Simone still doesn't like coming all the way out, but there's a platform in front of his cage that he came out onto from the door, that's a breakthrough. I also put him in my lap and he ate some baby food from me while in my lap. I think that's great! Maybe I can keep doing that. But with Luffy, I think it's all about just spending time with him, letting him roam around, come up to me occasionally for licks of baby food, touching his tail every now and then. Once he's comfortable I think I can start putting him in my lap and feeding him.

Still open for some advice on trust training though! Any bit helps.

joinrats.com is an excellent site full of information on trust training and socializing.

I've been there already! I've been everywhere! I want to talk to real people about their situations and experience. I've ready everything about everything and I still am not quite sure where I'm going. Creating my own training with all the things I read I guess.

Samii said:

I've been there already! I've been everywhere! I want to talk to real people about their situations and experience. I've ready everything about everything and I still am not quite sure where I'm going. Creating my own training with all the things I read I guess.

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That's sort of what you have to do really. I just took snippits of what was usually repeated in socializing methods and looked around forums for other's experience. Then worked with my rats like that. Not every rat is the same so some things will work on them other's not, sometimes you find your own ways. Most rats though LOVE food so there's always a good way.
(My rat Nemo wasn't very food driven so he was an exception)

I mean if you wanted I could tell you exactly what I did with my 4 boys if it'll help.

I also use baby food and some yogurt, which only my larger rat Luffy seems to be interested in. Simone likes it, but won't go far to get it.
Maybe try some other foods that they cannot run off with that are yummy? Tomato/spaghetti sauce, creamed corn, baby oatmeal, mushed up fruit?

They don't really want to come out of the cage though.
How interesting is their play area? Do you have lots of boxes and toys and stuff to play with and hide under? Try backing away from the cage and ignoring them. Read a book, watch a video. Ignore them sometimes, and see if they come up to you / come out when they think you aren't looking.

Luffy escaped his play pen one day and I had to usher him back into the cage. It really scared him. :c After that, I had to take them to the vet because I'm currently treating them for Myco. I feel like both of these incidences have put a major set back in my training.
Neither of these things will "scar" a rat or set you back. If they are ill and recovering, they may be less inclined to hang out / play, just as a human would be.

But I've heard the forced socialization method is bad and have been avoiding it. People I work with tell me to do a little of both, trust training and forced socialization to create a good mix.
Forced socialization isn't bad if you do it the right way (I believe someone already brought up the sweatshirt method) and with the right kind of rat. For instance, forced socialization may be considered bad with a previously abused rat, but in your situation - shy, young rats, it is not a bad thing. There is nothing wrong with mixing either.

Withhold treats until they come all the way out(which seems silly)?
Yes, this is silly. They get treats if they interact with you in anyway, positively reinforce their interest in you. However, you could give them "meh" treats when they are still in the cage/working their way out, then only give them "OMGWOWYUM" treats when they come all the way out.

Just take them out on my own and place them into their play area?
I would recommend doing this. The more you touch them, hold them, pick them up, the better. Especially if it is a short/easy trip to the play area, which it sounds like it is.

Do I pick them up for small intervals each day and hope they get used to it?
Yes. They will get used to it. Pick em up and put em down, even if it's just for 5 seconds. Barely lift them off the ground if you want. When you put them down, positively reinforce - say "good boy" in a sweet voice and give em a treat.

I just want them to get to that point where I can hang out with them, let them run around my room and trust them to come when called. Be okay with being picked up and touched, petted, loved on.
You'll have to accept the fact that not all rats ~love~ to be touched/petted/etc. Being okay with it should definitely be doable, but most rats aren't cuddlebugs, especially young and energetic ones. Also, a trick for getting your rats to "come when called", take your canister of baby puffs and shake it. It will make an easily recognizable sound that they associate with yum time and will be more likely to come to you than if/when they learn their name.

I'm not a patient person, but I'm being patient for them and hoping they come around.
I think you said you've had them for 2 weeks? That's not long at all. Trust takes time and 2 weeks is a very short amount of time. Human socialization typically takes months, especially for young un-handled rats.


Okay, so when do you know they're comfortable enough with you? It seems to me like they're regressing and I'm not really sure how to make them go to the next step. I would say take them out, but I don't want them to get too scared.
Take them out, it will be good for them and you. They need some time to run and play.

Note: I also raised the cage of the ground because my cats come in. I'm not sure if that's maybe why he's afraid to come out.
I know there has been at least one person here who had rats who were terrified of their cat. You shouldn't let the cat in the ratroom when it's out-time at all.
I don't know much about this part though.. I will try and find the thread about it.

Can I pet them while they're in the cage, even If Luffy stiffs up when I do?
Yup. Say nice things in a high pitched voice, sing to him, talk to him calmly, give him a treat when you're done.

I want to talk to real people about their situations and experience.
My first rat I had was a scared loner from a pet shop. Her cage was on a table. I would leave the door open and sit at the table with my laptop for hours. Eventually she worked her way out and was happy to try and annoy me while I worked at my computer.

My 3 girls are like your 2 boys. I've had them since March. I started with your method, trust training. Hoping they'd like me if I gave them enough treats. It didn't move very quickly. I started to let them come out of the cage on their own, leave the door open and sit on the ground, watch Netflix. I'd ignore them and eventually they started running up to me, looking for treats, climbing all over me, getting up on my shoulder.

I ignored advice to just "grab em!" because well I guess I was scared? Anyways, I got over that with help from Peggy and ever since then things are exponentially better. My one girl now LIKES to be held, my other tolerates it and my third well she still hates it but I make her endure it so she'll get used to it. I think a combo of trust training and forced socialization is best.
They are much more interested in me and want to spend more time with me now that they fully understand that I'm not going to eat them.
My best advice is really put yourself into it, commit to it, be willing to hold them and spend as much time as possible with them. That and distract yourself too, it's a great time to catch up on Netflix or read the news or whatever you like. Some rats just don't like to be watched a lot in the beginning while they explore you and their play area.

Thank you so much for this answer! It really helped me understand what I should do next. You're awesome for answering each of my questions and I'm so grateful! <3

I'll take your advice because it sounds like you did your trust training similarly to mine. I'll handle them more and let them get out of the cage on their own, ignoring them if I have to like you said. Again, thanks so much for your answer. I'm hoping I'll keep seeing more progress!

You're very welcome! Let us know how it goes! :3

You bet I will!!

Today was pretty cool. When I got home I came to their cage and gave them some treats. They were both in a corner together which seemed to make them more comfortable and I was petting them both. They ate the snacks, slower than normal, as I petted them. They didn't seem too perturbed. It was pretty cool. Before that, Simon was grooming my hand for a few moments. He's such a sweety. Later I cleaned their cage and took them out to run around. They seemed a bit scared once I started to actually clean, but when I put them back they were happy.

Progress, day by day. I can't wait to see how far we'll go.

Update!

Today was awesome!! I decided it was time for them to come out and face the world so I set up their play area and put them in it. They were pretty frightened at first, but they came around. I put their cage on the ground so they could go in and out freely and it helped a lot. They didn't want to go back in! Luffy even used his litterbox inside the cage when he needed to go and I just started him with that yesterday. He's so smart.

It was fun to watch them once they stopped being scared and started to explore. They ran around like puppies, play fighting and playing games together. Luffy did a lot of climbing and exploring that part of my bedroom. I fed them some baby food whenever they'd come close to me, which Simon didn't really want to do. Inside his cage he's much more outgoing and Luffy is more outgoing outside the cage. They seemed to really be enjoying themselves. But still, I was the stranger that just fed them. They were too preoccupied with their adventures to care about me. But, Luffy did walk around me and sniff me. He even played with my hand a little bit. It was hilarious. The only problem I had was getting them back in since they don't like being picked up. Luffy went in on his own and I had to pick up Simon and place him back. They seemed a bit stressed when I put them back in, probably cause they didn't want to go back in. Luffy chewed on the cage bars a bit and looked like he was trying to escape. But I think it went well for a first real outing.

That sounds great! I'm glad you're all bonding more and having fun!
That's awesome your little guy is so used to the litterbox already, ratties are so smart. c:

It sounds like they are really enjoying their out-time. They will relate that happiness with you if you spend that play time with them (just like the treats) and I'm sure that soon enough they will be more interactive with you. They're still young and hyper though, so it'll be easier to bond by playing with them than (for instance) bonding by cuddling with them. C: You can pretend that your hand is a rat, and chase them around with it and pet them quickly, kinda like how they wrestle/chase each other. ^_^

Update

Lemme know how you think they're coming along.

So I believe there's been some more improvement! I've taken them out every day that I could for at least a couple hours and let them run around me while I sit and watch a show. When they come to me, I'll feed them bits of baby puffs. The second time I took them out they were both jumping up on my lap and eating the treats I gave them right there on my lap. They would keep coming back for more too and hang out for short intervals. Luffy seems like he's always trying to find a way out though, and a couple times he has. I think he's just too curious for his own good. The second time he was out, he climbed out and into my laundry basket. When I went to pick him up to get him back he gave a small sqeak and then ran back on his own. I think it was a simple protest that he didn't want to be picked up and wasn't alarming but thought I'd mention it. They're both still skittish too to sudden movements, but I'm hoping they'll get over that with time.

So, today(as I type this) I'm sitting with them doing research because when they came out, Luffy was chattering his teeth together. That would be bruxing right? That would mean he's happy and is enjoying himself? I mean, everything else he does seems to point toward that too. He hops about like a rabbit and hops all the way up onto my lap to get his treats, in between his attempts to escape. They have also been letting me pet them and skritch them when they come up to get their treats too, which before they would turn and try to get away from my hand.

I think this is great progress. Luffy is still shy in his cage and has a problem being picked up but he's coming around. Simon is coming around very nicely and I believe will be the cuddler out of the two when he gets older. Luffy is so high energy when out and low energy in the cage and Simon is the complete opposite. It's fun getting to know them.

That sounds absolutely delightful! It really sounds like all 3 of you are having fun!

And yes your boy is bruxxing and he is very happy. Also, the hopping you are describing is called "popcorning" and is also a physical sign of extreme happiness!

Sounds really great overall, I'm glad you're all getting to know each other.

Yeah, it's pretty awesome considering I was concerned they wouldn't come around. They were so frightened in the beginning.

The only thing that was weird about today is that they didn't want to do much playing. Luffy seemed to have gotten scared by something, I'm not sure what, and was chillin' in the corner of his play area cleaning himself for the majority of the time and after I gave Simon a buttload of baby puffs and after he made several attempts to initiate play with Luffy with no success he crawled back into the cage for a nap. I thought they'd be more energetic because yesterday I didn't take them out and Luffy seemed so happy to get out and then spent his time chillin.