Kidney disease in rats

I've read of the typical symptoms like excess thirst, excess urination, loss of hind end...but I'd like to know about the neuro symptoms of kidney disease.

If anyone has any insight to share please do!

Did you look on rat guide? or post on that real rat lovers? I would think someone would have to know something about it. I just know that when the organs fail their belly can fill up but I cant say which organs. We never test to find out what is failing them after they pass.

Yes, I checked the rat guide but I was hoping for personal experience with it.
I don't know if I like that group "real rat lovers... they have a set clique of who can answer with their experience meanwhile others must show proof of scientific data.

jorats said:

Petunia, I'd like your insight on this too. ......
What did you observe in your cats? I've had two cats with severe kidney disease but never realized any neuro symptoms.

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some symptoms are related to the build up of toxins and others have to do with the loss of nutrients from peeing them out.
the main thing you'll notice, at least at first, is that improving their hydration and adding supplements that make the nutrients in their food more readily available to them, will also make these signs/symptoms improve
I just recently learned, in my search for answers for Norry, that it's not just diabetic that get neuropathy, those suffering from renal failure get it too.


this is what I've seen in my cats. My first cat Sara was the sickest and the youngest, she was only 7 yrs old when her kidneys started to fail. She would be stumbling around like she was drunk. Twice she just collapsed and had to be rushed to the vet and was put on IV fluids AND given subQ fluids.You could smell ammonia on her breath.

with the other cats it came on more gradually (Snoopy, Mickie, and some fosters)

some symptoms were:
twitching
itchiness
confusion
lethargy, weakness
balance problems (I don't know if this is from weakness or something neurological)
paw shaking (front and back)
jerking movements


as well as the usual wt loss, loss of muscle mass, nausea, vomiting, anorexia, lethargy, increased drinking and urination, at first (in end stage the kidneys don't work at all and they don't put out any urine)

I don't know if this helps at all.
I think the main thing I noticed is that the confusion would improve when the cat was well hydrated and treatment was working to bring their BUN down.

the twitching and jerks improved when they were put on B12 and other supplements
so I'm guessing those symptoms were from peeing out essential nutrients

Nell for example, isn't having as many of the head jerks and paw shaking and twitches since she's been on a supplement. She is in early kidney failure, drinking and urinating more and losing some muscle mass. (not sure if muscle wasting is from the kidneys or just an old cat thing, though) Nell is about 16

Yes, those help a lot. I do now remember seeing that in both Cally and Rusty. (cats)
I believe my Pip has kidney disease or renal failure. His symptoms are not quite PT like but close with the stumbling, confusion, wobbly, loss of hind end which seemed to have happened overnight. Excess urination causing him to marinate in it. He's also squinty but his appetite is ferocious, even though he gets plenty to eat. I think I will attempt to subq him.

Victoria's vet suggested this supplement for one of her rats, I think it was also being prescribed for a rabbit or g pig?

http://www.calvetsupply.com/product..._for_Cats/Veterinary_Vitamins_and_Supplements

You give just a pinch for rats. It's what got Norry to gain some weight back.

I'm looking into the Aventi KP for Nell, I don't think I could get it fast enough to help Norry

what do you suggest for my boy now that it appears his kidneys are shutting down? (very little urination in the past 12 hrs, not eating much, but trying to)

should I take him in to be euthanised?

I'm thinking of calling a friend about maybe taking us to a vet outside the area, but its' kind of a long drive and I'm not sure she'll have the time.

For Norry, I would have him on very low protein and lots and lots of water. Can you subq him?

vet refused to give me the type of syringe etc that I would need to do it, she said that because of his heart issues, fluids are contra indicated

grrrrrrrr
discussed this with a vet online (FB group, Adele, you may know her?) and she said it's NOT contra indicated

my vet is useless.

he's eating some tomatoes now

that's the other thing, he will not drink water. He only gets water from watery foods, which is actually quite smart of him, because they find in people anyway, that water mixed with food is absorbed better and keeps you hydrated longer than water taken by itself

they did studies, having ppl consume the same amount of water, only one group had the water added to their food (in soups, cooked cereals, casseroles, etc) and the other consumed the water by itself

the group getting the water with food stayed hydrated better, the other group peed out most of that water.

I imagine it could be similar for rats, why not?

I am going to have to run out and find some more juicy fruits for him, but I can't find any sign that he's peed since ~6 am and I'm getting worried.

jorats said:

Yes, I checked the rat guide but I was hoping for personal experience with it.
I don't know if I like that group "real rat lovers... they have a set clique of who can answer with their experience meanwhile others must show proof of scientific data.

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They do until they trust you then it isnt so bad. I somehow gt tagged in a lot of post about things that are wrong but I only speak from experience or answer what I know. They do document a lot and a lot are from rat guide.. I would post on there just to see if anyone has any information on it. I would like to know what others say about this.

How do they even tell it is kidney failure? Most vet wont do blood work so what other options do you have to find out?

Petunia said:

vet refused to give me the type of syringe etc that I would need to do it, she said that because of his heart issues, fluids are contra indicated

grrrrrrrr
discussed this with a vet online (FB group, Adele, you may know her?) and she said it's NOT contra indicated

my vet is useless.

he's eating some tomatoes now

that's the other thing, he will not drink water. He only gets water from watery foods, which is actually quite smart of him, because they find in people anyway, that water mixed with food is absorbed better and keeps you hydrated longer than water taken by itself

they did studies, having ppl consume the same amount of water, only one group had the water added to their food (in soups, cooked cereals, casseroles, etc) and the other consumed the water by itself

the group getting the water with food stayed hydrated better, the other group peed out most of that water.

I imagine it could be similar for rats, why not?

I am going to have to run out and find some more juicy fruits for him, but I can't find any sign that he's peed since ~6 am and I'm getting worried.

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shelagh knows the place to order this stuff?

Eben has a huge lung tumor, is on meds incl lasix and has been losing weight ... I've been supplementing with organic soy infant formula thickened with baby cereal etc
Don't know if that would help Norry

he can't eat baby food or baby cereal and he's unable to drink, I have no idea why (the vet did check his teeth) he can only eat soft solid foods and occasionally he tries to eat regal rat chow

I can't syringe feed him, he freaks out
he won't eat off my finger, he bites them instead
he wont eat off a spoon either

jorats said:

Yes, I checked the rat guide but I was hoping for personal experience with it.
I don't know if I like that group "real rat lovers... they have a set clique of who can answer with their experience meanwhile others must show proof of scientific data.

Click to expand...

the issue I have with the Real rat lovers page is that they don't say what it is that makes certain people their "experts". Being able to research some particular topic well does not make you an expert on it. I am finding a lot of the ppl there don't have nearly as much experience as, for example, YOU do, Joanne, or Shelagh, or Peggy, etc. Not saying that they don't have any or even enough experience but they seem a bit close minded about what is considered "officially" good info.

for instance, one of the admins of that group thinks that this vet that does You Tube videos on rats is "THE" ultimate authority on rat care and rat health. :/
he seems really nice and all, but I don't know that he's "THE" foremost authority on rats LOL

one of his videos:
http://youtu.be/967qz6BV6Uw


there is no ONE ultimate authority on rat health. Not possible. You need to be a critical thinker and be willing to look at what others have done that has worked, and question the supposed authority that one claims to have on a particular issue
if you are going to get truly useful information

I was so proud of you Joanne when you questioned what made a certain person an expert. I'd wanted to do it myself but I have met the person "in real life" so I couldn't ask that question myself. she told me she was their "go to" person for food related questions but never said why. all this time I was thinking she studied nutrition or something.


so like they taught us in school, always check your sources!!
;-)

Our Finn died of kidney disease here is his thread maybe it will help.

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27330&highlight=finn

Exactly Petunia which is why I asked, what makes her an expert. Turns out...nothing really.

For kidney disease Petunia pointed out to me the test strips for protein and such. That would be a good thing to keep on hand if you suspect it. I need to get me some!

dspch911 said:

Our Finn died of kidney disease here is his thread maybe it will help.

http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27330&highlight=finn

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O. M. G.

Vickie, that is EXACTLY what is happening with Norry! thanks for posting the link to his thread,
I wish I had remembered Finn's story and looked it over sooner

everything is the same, the excessive porphyrin with staining and drooling- I bet that's from being nauseous.... the eating like he's starving and still losing wt, everything is the same,

being able to use the front paws well but rolling over when he sits back

the ups and downs, seeming good one day, seeming like he's near deaths 'door the next,

seeing things that *look* like PT but are not, at least not like any official PT we've ever seen

holy crap, you've got Norry's life story in that thread, except that my vet hasn't bothered to test Norry's urine.
Since I have hope now that he may 'last" a bit longer, i'm going to get the urine test strips and test him myself

thanks for reminding us about your dear Finn. He's an angel, he may have saved Norry from being PTS too soon.

Wolfie had acute renal failure, different from progressive kidney disease I suppose. He had excessive thirst and urination, low appetite, low energy and mild confusion at his worst.

jorats said:

Yes, I checked the rat guide but I was hoping for personal experience with it.
I don't know if I like that group "real rat lovers... they have a set clique of who can answer with their experience meanwhile others must show proof of scientific data.

Click to expand...

Petunia said:

the issue I have with the Real rat lovers page is that they don't say what it is that makes certain people their "experts". Being able to research some particular topic well does not make you an expert on it. I am finding a lot of the ppl there don't have nearly as much experience as, for example, YOU do, Joanne, or Shelagh, or Peggy, etc. Not saying that they don't have any or even enough experience but they seem a bit close minded about what is considered "officially" good info.

for instance, one of the admins of that group thinks that this vet that does You Tube videos on rats is "THE" ultimate authority on rat care and rat health. :/
he seems really nice and all, but I don't know that he's "THE" foremost authority on rats LOL

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I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one that has been questioning their responses and expertise. I too find this site more useful and helpful, but I wish answers came a little quicker.

Here's a video of Pip, I took on the weekend. He's been like this for awhile now. It's not PT and not a bladder infection. He's been on Baytril for awhile too.

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v53/jorats/videos/pip_zps08776991.mp4

how old is he, Joanne?

is he peeing a lot/drinking a lot (or eating a lot of watery foods)?

he does look confused but is a lot more energetic then Norry. However, Norry has never been a really energetic rat, so you can't really go by that, I guess


this is what I see in Norry that is the same as a cat with renal issues, the head droops, with the chin towards the chest.
He will do this when he's eating sometimes, his head just keeps going down til he's nose first in his food. it's gradual usually- the vet thought it might be fainting from his heart issues, but its never sudden.

I don't know/remember what causes the head drooping in renal kitties. I know Norry was looking better and able to hold his head up more anytime he'd eaten a lot of juicy fruits and veggies

I can check Tayna's crf site for the reason behind cats doing it
http://www.felinecrf.org/symptoms_treatments_index.htm