Bully

I'd like to hear you guys' advice on a situation. I have two males about 5 and 7 months old. The 7 month old (Karel) was a biter when we first got him, but he has calmed down a lot and we didn't end up neutering him like we had thought about. However, he is the dominant rat in the cage and lately bullys the 5 month old (Distel). In particular, he steals Distel's food, which then usually turns in to Distel kicking him out of their favorite house and squeeling with bared teeth when Karel tries to come in, and occassionally turns into a tumble. I now feed them treats seperately, and Distel has grown so he seems to be getting enough to eat.

However, the thing that Karel does that annoys him the most is not letting him have his personal space--Distel often tries to find his own area when he is tired of his cagemate only to have Karel relentlessly push his way into it, at which point Distel freezes, stares at Karel intently, and wiggles his tail. Last night I tried to put him back in his cage for the night and he took one look at Karel and then turned around and refused to go back in. This morning I let him out to his favorite spot on top of the cage, when Karel started poking at him from below. Oddly, he dropped a discharge from his genital area that looked like seminal fluid (as far as I could figure out!?) and then he flew onto my shoulder and was completely frozen. While they have always had their fights, it seems so much more frequent and stressful now that Distel is older. They still sleep together, but I have them play seperately so they can get away from each other sometimes. I've only had females before, so I was wondering if this is pretty typical of two young males? Any ideas to help Distel have some peace of mind?

We have 15 boys and I have never seen that behavior. Sorry I cannot help you out. Our nakies live together and tussle all the time, but nothing like your describing and I've never had to separate them. We did have to separate our trio (Sebastian, Lovee, and Jack) for awhile. Sebastian was always getting large wounds on him so we made him a bachelor for a few months - maybe 5 months. During that time Lovee injured Jack's eye - those two found pretty bad (rat balled quite a few times) so we had to separate those two while Jack's eye healed (he lost the eye so it actually shriveled up) We then opened the DCN up - we had them separated as singles - and put all three back together and they have been living peacefully since. Perhaps your boys need time apart and then a reintroduction. I don't know that for sure, but it worked for our boys. You need the experts advice on this one.

How big is your cage?
This is pretty normal behaviour with to intact males at that age. How long has this been going on? You could wait it out or have Karel neutered.

The cage itself is 38x22x16, and it is on top of a bureau so I usually have it open with one drawer they can crawl down to and a sitting area on top of the cage, which doubles the vertical height. Now that they are bigger we are looking for a different cage (especially one that is taller since one loves to climb) but I haven't found a suitable one yet. There are also 3 sleeping areas, which they occassionally use but mostly they both insist on claiming the same one :rolleyes2: The behavior has been escalating for several weeks, but so far there hasn't been any injuries. I'm trying to get them over respiratory infections and I'm afraid the stress isn't helping. At the moment I'm trying a rotating schedule so each one gets their own time and also together time. I'll see if that relieves any tension.

38 x 22 is the base? That's a decent size for two rats for sure.
Karel could outgrow his bullying behaviour so you could wait it out. You could try having a time out cage for him. Each time you catch him being a bully, you pull him out and put him in a very small cage with nothing in it. No water, no food no toys, nothing. Leave him in there for no more than 10 minutes. Do this each time he bullies. He might catch on and not do it anymore. I've had this work great with females.

It sounds like he may need a neuter after all. Maybe try removing everything that Distel could be cornered in by Karel. When one of my boys first got here he would get cornered and flip out. So I arranged the cage accordingly until the rats had all sorted out their issues and trusted each other a bit more. I am not saying that Distel is necessarily just being cornered by Karel, but if he has an easy escape route things may be a bit more peaceful (I would remove houses and things like that). Just try and look at things from Distels eyes when arranging the cage.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. This gives me some ideas. Karel is smart enough to know when he shouldn't be doing something, so it will depend on how much of a slave to his hormones he is (and his stubbornly strong-will ) Distel has also grown so he is almost as large as Karel now and is beginning to be able to hold his own better.

Update! The situation had gotten to the point where Distel was basically confined to his house when he was in the cage and couldn't hardly sneak over to the food/water. He hated being in the cage and did everything he could to not be there. Karel didn't seem to respond to time outs and was totally obsessed with hoarding all food in sight.

However, I am happy to report that the situation has improved drastically! Several weeks ago we got a large bird cage that is about triple the size of the old cage and we made 3 levels, including one that can be closed off to seperate them. Also placed 2 food dishes and another water bottle. Suddenly they are getting along great! Karel is less obsessive about hoarding food--he cleans out one dish but Distel gets the other one. Distel has his own space on the top floor and Karel has a place on the second, and they share the house on the bottom with much less fighting. Distel no longer runs whenever he sees Karel, and has decided he'd rather hump him instead and then bounce around so Karel has to chase him (so far Karel has been a good sport about this...)

I'm relieved that the extra space seems to have made them so much happier. The cage calculators said the old cage should be big enough for 2 rats, but I don't think it took in to account the size of their attitudes! Here is photo proof of the new happy co-existence:

That is great news!

I had 3 in a CN and had to separate them do to fighting after a couple months I put them into a DCN and they get along much better. There are still a few fights, but no one is left bleeding or blinded as before...

Great to hear you had success!