Well????

Posted this on his other thread, but like the others it seems to have gotten lost or overlooked...... I really dislike how this forum is going! I think I have 3 or 4 different threads now on Popper just to get answers......

Need an opinion, I don't know if these neb treatments are helping or making things worse. I put him in in good condition, no audible sounds, good coloring and he comes out with audible sounds and dusky coloring. He hates being in there so its stressing him out plus after awhile he starts thrashing around.

I don't think he's really eating anymore unless we finger feed/spoon feed him baby food. He took a small amount of baby cereal last night out of a small dish that I placed directly in front of him. We've lowered all the water bottles so he will not have to make that much of an effort to get to them. I'd like to move him into a smaller cage so I can see how much he is actually eating, but don't want the move to stress him either and I don't want him to be away from his cage mates.

He has a follow up appointment on Monday and I'm afraid I may have to let him go his quality of life is fading.

Oh yea, opinion - do I continue the neb treatments or not.

Five threads on the same topic just to get things noticed - that's ridiculous!
I'm taking my concerns to fb
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29735
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29743
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29742
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29612
http://www.ratshackforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28111

Nebulizing was not helping my rats, and was making them worse, so I stopped doing it. I have tried nebulizing three different rats and each time, they either get stressed out and fling themselves around or they end up sounding more congested than they were before. I've read that when steam/nebulizing makes resp. issues worse then it's more likely a heart condition, but I'm no expert. I personally think nebulizing is best done on relatively "healthy" rats; if a rat is going downhill, in my experience, nebulizing does nothing to help. If the rats is not eating, drinking, or moving on his own, then I would consider euthanasia...

BlueSkyy said:

Nebulizing was not helping my rats, and was making them worse, so I stopped doing it. I have tried nebulizing three different rats and each time, they either get stressed out and fling themselves around or they end up sounding more congested than they were before. I've read that when steam/nebulizing makes resp. issues worse then it's more likely a heart condition, but I'm no expert. I personally think nebulizing is best done on relatively "healthy" rats; if a rat is going downhill, in my experience, nebulizing does nothing to help. If the rats is not eating, drinking, or moving on his own, then I would consider euthanasia...

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Thanks for the response, I do believe that is what I will do on Monday. What you describe is exactly what he does - that is why I think its doing more harm than good.

New plan, got the advice I needed. Not happy I had to go to fb to get it, but this is our new plan of treatment. Let me just say first, I did not know lasix decreases the appetite and Popper was on a rather large dose for a long period of time. So this is what we are now doing.

No nebulizer treatments
Prednisone as prescribed
Lasix once a day (not twice) if that goes well, we will decrease and attempt to ween off.

It's really unfortunate that members can't change the tittle of the thread. I was sure I read in one of the threads about the nebulzing that it does "pull" out the mucous/phlegm which is why I didn't respond because I agreed with that statement. With so many threads made, it's hard to keep track of the timeline.
Also, I believe many don't respond because you are in a situation where you've gone beyond what many of us could do and don't know how best to guide you. For example, with me, I have zero heart issues experience so I can't advise anything about it. But I do have nebulizing experience and that's sometime I would never recommend on a sick rat. It just seem to make them worse but then I remember reading that nebulizing was made to bring up the phlegm. I also didn't want to advise stopping it because what if it was doing some good even though he sounded sicker. For me, I hate giving out advice when I have not experienced that particular issue. I'm really sorry if you aren't getting your answers here but I do believe we are limited in our responses.
For me... I probably would have made him comfortable as best I could and have him pts when I saw it was too much. But that's not something I'm comfortable saying because who am I to tell you, the mom, the one who knows him best to have him pts. Do you see what I mean?

jorats said:

It's really unfortunate that members can't change the tittle of the thread. I was sure I read in one of the threads about the nebulzing that it does "pull" out the mucous/phlegm which is why I didn't respond because I agreed with that statement. With so many threads made, it's hard to keep track of the timeline.
Also, I believe many don't respond because you are in a situation where you've gone beyond what many of us could do and don't know how best to guide you. For example, with me, I have zero heart issues experience so I can't advise anything about it. But I do have nebulizing experience and that's sometime I would never recommend on a sick rat. It just seem to make them worse but then I remember reading that nebulizing was made to bring up the phlegm. I also didn't want to advise stopping it because what if it was doing some good even though he sounded sicker. For me, I hate giving out advice when I have not experienced that particular issue. I'm really sorry if you aren't getting your answers here but I do believe we are limited in our responses.
For me... I probably would have made him comfortable as best I could and have him pts when I saw it was too much. But that's not something I'm comfortable saying because who am I to tell you, the mom, the one who knows him best to have him pts. Do you see what I mean?

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I want to know nebulizing isn't good for sick rats - today is the first time I've heard that and your the second person now to tell me. I've only had rats for two years and they are throwing everything at me PT, Kidney disease, Heart Mass, and Chest Mass - along with the little things. I also keep hearing it brings up phlegm, but I don't understand what phlegm its suppose to bring up when were dealing with a mass compressing his lungs and thorax. His lungs are clear, there is no fluid heard in his lungs. The only sound is his lungs rubbing on the mass. Lasix was my suggestion since it worked in October - they didn't see him or listen to him, but gave us the prescription about 3-4 weeks ago. They only saw him on Saturday when he turned purple. If you or others think I'm going way beyond what I should for him - I want to hear that too because I don't want to be accused of not doing enough and/or doing too much. I don't want anyone to think I could of done this, or that - that's why I'm asking - I don't know what to do or try or how far to take this. I had a comment made after we had Finn pts that made me feel that I was being accused of not trying harder or giving up too soon - we did everything we could for that boy. I think Oliver suffered for that because we waited too long with him and had to rush him in on a Sunday since he was gasping for air. I know Popper's sick, I know he's terminal. Its just frustrating when you have to make so many threads which results in the information getting lost and no one really knowing the progression of his illness. If no one has an answer that's fine - put that down at least I know I'm not being ignored. I just wish my boys would pass peacefully on their own....

Saline solution works by osmosis to pull water out of the cells and into the lungs. The extra water will thin any mucus present in the lungs, but if the lungs are clear already... well then you just put a whole bunch of excess fluid into your rats lungs. This doesn't apply if 1.) the meds you are nebulizing aren't mixed into a saline solution, or 2.) are mixed into an isotonic saline solution.

Blueskyy is heading where I was going to say...

If your rat is on lasix then obviously there is a heart issue there. Albuterol loosens the fluid in the lungs and allows it to flush out. If the rat's heart is congested, all that is happening is adding more fluid to an already congested cardiopulmonary system. Basically he drowns in fluid.

So, nebs really are great if you only have respiratory issues. With secondary heart issues it can complicate things.

Also, nebs only do so much for phlegm anyway. It is primarily for the wheezing.

(Recovery nurse-if you were wondering)

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I do wonder if there is something with a more even blood level that he could take as a diuretic. Do vets prescribe Enalapril or anything other than lasix for rats? Lasix has a short half-life so it can send him on a fluid rollercoaster.

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Here's the story with the lasix since its lost in 5 threads. He was taken in for a possible URI in October. They did an x-ray and saw something, but it was cloudy, but definitely a mass. After a week or so of lasix we did a follow up x-ray and the mass was much more defined. Now, whether the lasix removed fluid and made it more clear or he just grew bigger we don't know. He came off the lasix at that point. About 3-4 weeks ago when I noticed a definite change in his condition I asked for the steriods and the doctor we saw at that time would not give them to the hubby (I wasn't there and neither was Popper- he was there with Tucker I think) anyway, she didn't want him to have steriods because they suppress the immune system. So I ASKED FOR THE LASIX since I figured I needed to try something and that seemed to help at the beginning. Popper was not seen until last Saturday, I was there and he was put on Prednisone and given a Doxy shot (last 7 days). His lungs are CLEAR OF FLUID - he heard NOTHING. He had been OFF the lasix from mid October until mid May when we started them again.
I had no idea you should not give a nebulizer treatment to a sick rat. However, this also has me confused. Why would I give one to a healthy rat? He didn't have much of a problem with the treatments until this week, now he trashes and bites at the bars. There is no saline listed on the bottle and we don't put any in there. They seem to help GMC with his chronic URI.
To the best of my knowledge his heart and lungs would be just fine if this mass was growing in his chest cavity and crushing them. So that is where we are now. I really do appreciate the feed back - this whole thing just has me frustrated... :gaah:

EDIT: So I reread Popper's threads and now I have myself confused. Apparently I suggested the lasix both times on suggestions from this forum. His diagnosis was Oct 24th and second x-ray Nov 9th. I also forgot the x-ray showed he had arthritis and gas. He was originally on these meds

Doxycycline 2 times a day for 2 weeks 0.03 ml (50 mg/ml)
Diphenhydramine 2 times a day for 5-6 days 0.30 ml (2.5mg/ml suspension 15 ml)
Meloxicam 1 time per day 0.25 ml (1.5mg/ml 5ml)
Respicalm 2 times a day 0.10 ml (26 ml)

Nebulizing rats that are still eating, drinking, and moving on their own usually has better results, especially if the rats have congestion in their lungs. For example, a rat with a simple URI or a flare-up that is still relatively young, healthy, good weight, etc. will yield better results. Nebulizing once they're on a downhill slide is not usually helpful, at least in my experience. Honestly I have not found anything besides regular dex injections (and possibly oxygen chambers, though I've never tried those on my rats) that helps with end-stage resp/breathing issues.

If it's the actual mass creating compression in the chest and making him sick, then I'd say it's time to let him go. But if he's having respiratory issues, which he could be. My vet once told us a rat of ours had clear lungs until she died and a necropsy revealed really bad lungs but a mass so close to the lungs that it created an air flow and that's what the vet would hear, a clear air flow but it was wrong.
With rats, it's pretty much trial and error with everything. That's pretty much why my vet doesn't want to go too far with treatment which in a way is a blessing but a curse as well. Sometimes I want more done which my vet does when I push and then I end up disappointed or even full of guilt because I made my rat endure too much. It's such a hard call Vickie.... I know how you are feeling, your desperation, seeking the right answers, the intense fear of not doing enough and doing too much.

Thanks for the feedback we now have a pretty clear plan of what we are going to do. Since we can clearly see the trachea being pinched/shortened in the second x-ray I am pretty confident this is the mass creating pressure. We will continue with the lasix once a day and his prednisone twice a day. I will see how he does and make the decision Monday, but I think I'm pretty clear on what it will be.

I don't know what kind of mass he has but I have a suggestion. In humans, beta blockers (medication) not only would help his heart work more efficiently...they can shrink vascular masses. We use them all the time to shrink hemangiomas. If it is a fatty mass they won't help much. Ask your vet if they can tell what it is comprised of and if it is vascular, ask for a beta blocker. Examples are propranolol, metoprolol, and atenolol. Good luck.

I'm so sorry, wish I could help your boy. That mass seems to be the problem, so scary. Did the vet say what symptoms he'll get when the mass is too big?

Sheldon said:

I don't know what kind of mass he has but I have a suggestion. In humans, beta blockers (medication) not only would help his heart work more efficiently...they can shrink vascular masses. We use them all the time to shrink hemangiomas. If it is a fatty mass they won't help much. Ask your vet if they can tell what it is comprised of and if it is vascular, ask for a beta blocker. Examples are propranolol, metoprolol, and atenolol. Good luck.

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Thanks for the suggestion, I will ask on Monday. He has been active today going up and down the DCN and has been out with daddy a few times since I have been cage cleaning. He ate about a 1/4 of a gerber baby meat stick, rice cereal mixed with ensure - which he prefers off of daddy's finger, a piece of cantaloupe, and some dried oats. Its not a lot, but its something. Hoping now that we decreased the lasix his appetite will return. No nebs today.