Is jealousy a possible/realistic concern?

Intros with Rook, Chess, and Milo are not going so well. They're mostly okay in the bathtub; Milo isn't fear-pooping any more, and has tried to dominance-hump the other two-- both at once, which was comedy gold-- but the whole process freaks the older boys out and aggravates Chess' respiratory issues. Out of the bathtub, Rook is a tyrant and, at 506 grams, almost twice Milo's size.

Chess is now on his third round of antibiotics (round two of Doxycycline) and an inhaler. He's not sounding like it's helping much this time. We're not sure what's wrong at this point, but x-rays may be in his near future to rule out anything like a mass.

Here's why this matters-- our vet has said that if his breathing is still bad when/if we opt for neutering, the surgery will be more risky for him. Not a massive risk, but still. We're not sure we want to put him through that kind of stress, and she is of a similar mind. He's a bit of a delicate, neurotic soul.

We're considering changing the plan a little and just neutering Milo, then seeing about moving him in with the ladies. He's a sociable, playful little guy with a lot of energy, and no rat should have to live alone if there are other options.

My concern is that Rook and Chess might get jealous of another boy moving in with "their" ladies. Not that they'd have contact, so it might not make much practical difference, but it should be an okay thing, yes?

Some of this is just thinking out loud. We've had solitary boys before who didn't get along with anyone, but Milo just wants to play with everybody.

From experience its MUCH easier to move a neutered boy in with girls!! Buddy meet our girls once and was living with them (4) the next day.

If intros are exacerbating Chess's respiratory issues you need to stop. Has he been on any combo of meds? Since he has been on doxy so long I would suggest moving on to azithromycin or adding baytril with the doxy. You can try lasix, it won't harm him and if it works you're most likely looking at a cardiac issue. If he has a chest mass/heart condition - I can suggest meds for that too.

I would never put a rat with active respiratory issues through an elective surgery. He may make it through the surgery, but is likely to develop more issues after and/or pass away.

Personally, I would neuter the boy and put him with the girls. Your other boys will not mind... Good luck and I hope Chess feels better....

We did stop the intros. As he sounded like he was doing better (Baytril helped the first time) we resumed, but when it became clear the stress was exacerbating things, we stopped. First round of Doxy helped some, so we started again. And again, he was too freaked out by the dry, towel-lined bathtub to continue.

(He was more relaxed meeting Milo in someone's lap. That went well until Milo tried to dominance-hump him in my husband's sleeve. It didn't stress Chess out, but it irked him enough to chase Milo and pull out some fur. He's otherwise very patient with the little guy. They'd probably get along well if it wasn't for the hormonal nonsense.)

Third round of Doxy has shown a hint of improvement at the end of ten days when combined with twice-daily salbutamol sulfate from an inhaler, but the improvement is pretty minimal. There are still noises, but they're less rough-sounding. The first time we took him in for respiratory stuff, the vet had to use a stethoscope to hear any breathing problems (I am sometimes an overly-cautious ratmom). When we had him at the vet the last time, she could barely hear his heart because of the noise from his breathing. Our next step, if separating him doesn't work, is to try to get to the OVC during the week for x-rays and whatever other tests they can do. Until the end of June, our weekday transportation is pretty limited. If they're open on a weekend, we could take him in.

I'll suggest azithromycin and lasix to our vet. If it works and, as you said, means he has something cardiac-related, I'll absolutely let you know.

As far as neutering goes, we're wondering if neutering Rook might bring his belligerence down a notch. It worked wonders with Agent J and Clint. If we neuter Rook and Milo, they could live with the ladies and Chess could have his own space; of course, if he wanted, he could play with the other boys during out time. We wouldn't deprive him of company, just of company that wants to hog all the attention.

Thank you for the suggestions.

Some good news-- the vet says he's not bad enough that it's an indicator for Lasix. We're hoping a break from Rook will give him the rest he needs. If not, we'll try azithromycin.

After that, we keep him as comfortable and low-stress as we can.

Azithromycin is not very effective by itself but works well in combo with baytril
I strongly suggest trying azithromycin (10 mg/Ib to 15 mg/Ib) + baytril - orally, twice a day, for 6 weeks if it works.

We picked up a second DCN. Milo is sulking, wondering what terrible thing he did to deserve losing his home and being put in this huge space full of so many new and interesting things that aren't his. Y'know, despite much of his stuff also being there. He does not do change very well, so it may take him a bit to come around to it.

Chess is surprisingly not as freaked out by his relocation to the other "apartment" as we thought he'd be. Rook, however, is very confused and frustrated, and has pooped noxiously in protest. Our current plan, if Chess really wants to go back with Rook, is to neuter Rook while they're apart so that he mellows a bit and stops being a douche to his brother.

In a month or two, we'll neuter Milo and try to move him in with the ladies. We might aim to have them occupy one DCN (still in separate units, because Chess-nuts) and use the extra for storage, or we might let the larger boys have one full DCN while the ladies and Milo have the other. Less squabbling over favourite sleeping places that way.

It's heartbreaking watching the boys sulk as they adjust to their new living spaces, luxurious though they are.

Just a quick update:

Chess seems to enjoy being solitary. He's not keen on coming out when Rook is out, and while Rook appears to miss him, he does not seem to reciprocate. His breathing seems to be getting a little bit better. For the first day, it sounded worse, but it's improved with his settling in.

We're going to try a round of azithromycin (or, if the vet agrees, the suggested azithromycin/baytril combo) to see if it helps in combination with the reduced stress.

What will likely happen at some point over the next couple of months is that we'll get Milo and Rook neutered so they can live with the ladies (and each other), toning down Rook's aggression at the same time. I know it's not a guaranteed behaviour change, but it's a step toward Rook not living alone. His brother might not be a social person, but he is.

At this point, you have all three boys living alone?
I agree that Chess should be on zithro/baytril combo and to keep him on it for at least 6 weeks.
I would definitely get Rook and Milo neutered but I would try them back with Chess.
In my 15 year experience, a neuter has 100% changed bullying behaviour to either tolerant or absolute sweetness and this is having over a hundred neuters done for aggressive behaviour.
On a side note, I did have one boy go through surgery with very poor lungs and he recovered exceptionally well.
Good luck!

We've had really good luck with straight azithromycin before, and it seems to be working relatively well for Chess now. When I take him in for a follow-up once our vet is back from her wedding, I'll ask why she chose not to opt for the Zithromax/Baytril combination, or for a six-week run. She might want to give his system a break, since he's been on antibiotics of one sort or another for several months now.

He also tends to like hanging out near the open window. We may get a small humidifier to put by his favourite sleeping spot, just to see if the moisture is what's helping. Not having a solid pound of rat pushing him around is probably reducing the stress level as well, which may be helping.

Raven's breathing, unfortunately, is becoming worse. Once the vet comes back, we'll start her on medication. She should be back next week. Everyone else is just fine, so we're thinking it might be something not treatable by antibiotics if it's just affecting two related rats. The inhaler was helping for a while, but it's helping less now. She doesn't seem to be uncomfortable and is as active as ever, but she sounds rough. I'd rather err on the safe side and treat her.

At present, all three boys are separately housed. Chess does not seem to miss Rook in the slightest and has no interest in coming out when Rook is out. He's curious about Milo, but we're not going to restart intros until after he's had a chance to settle in and finished ten days of azithromycin. Again, once the vet is back, we'll be talking about neuters. If we can put the boys together, we will. If there are still difficulties, we may move someone in with the ladies.

Chess seems to be content as a solitary boy. We've had a couple like that-- Eddard and Aemon were little old men when we got them, so surgery would have been rough on them. They were not rat-friendly at all, even to each other (Eddard bit the tip of one of Aemon's fingers off). They were happy to have lots of out-time so long as other rats weren't involved.

If Chess wants company after the neutering has been done, we're more than happy to oblige. If he doesn't, we can roll with that as well.

Small update: Raven will start on antibiotics tonight. The vet techs are still in the office and our vet may not have headed off to get married yet. I think that's on the weekend.

Milo and Rook were neutered about two weeks ago. Today they were given a clean bill of health by the vet-- everything has healed up beautifully.

I have high hopes for restarting intros with the boys. They were snuggling at the vet today, and Rook groomed Milo a bit before stretching his head under Milo's front to ask for some reciprocation. Milo doesn't appear to understand how to groom others yet, so he didn't go for it. We'll have to work on that.

We'll work on introducing the two boys to each other, then to the ladies (one boy at a time) before putting all four in the same space for playtime. Last thing we need is for the boys to get all huffy over the girls. Hopefully we'll be able to move the four in together in about a month.

That's great news! And a good plan of action.